I survived... beyond and back

[mike ahndembroak]

I imagine a few of you have seen this show on the bio channel, it deals with stories of people who have clinically died and come back to life. While there stories have some things in common ( bright beautiful light, an overwhelming sense of peace) there are some drastic differences, some see angels, while others see relatives. some are on stairs while others are floating. some are getting life reviews while others are whisked back to there childhood homes. am I alone in thinking that the "hereafter" would be more systematic than that. wouldn't everyone have the same experience as everyone else. could this be evidence that these are nothing more than a "dream state"?

[Der Trihs]

It is by all the evidence just a dream/hallucination. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and experiences that are indistinguishable from a hallucination that are happening under exactly the sort of conditions you'd expect a hallucination aren't even remotely believable evidence much less extraordinary evidence.

And besides the differences you mention, keep in mind that you are only going to see on shows like that stories about appropriately mystical sounding experiences; you'll hear about the guy who floated through a tunnel of light and met his dead grandfather, not the guy who floated through a tunnel of television screens and met a talking gorilla.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by mike ahndembroak

am I alone in thinking that the "hereafter" would be more systematic than that. wouldn't everyone have the same experience as everyone else.

You are probably not alone, but it is certainly not a logical conclusion to draw.

The idea that everybody experiences a different fate after death goes back thousands of years. It is probably older than the human species itself. Only a handful of religions believe that everybody experiences the afterlife in a systematic manner.

The vast majority of religions believe that a person's experience in the afterlife depends on their behaviour in this (or previous) lives. At its most simplistic level a good person goes to heaven, a bad person goes to hell and an average person goes to limbo. And that is terribly simplified for any given theology. In reality different punishments, rewards and penances await every person after death in pretty much all religions.

Can you explain to us how you came to the conclusion that the afterlife would be systematic? Can you even explain how it could be systematic while remaining consistent with most religions' view on justice/karma?

could this be evidence that these are nothing more than a "dream state"?

Not really, no.

Or rather, it could be, but it is more compelling as evidence that they are not dream states.

The degree of consistency you described is something never experienced in any known dream state. In the examples that you describe the experience is consistent in outline, but varies in detail. For example, there is travel upwards towards a light, a guide from the spirit world and an experience that takes place in the past. Now the upwards travel may take place via flight or via stairs, the spirit guide may be a known resident of heaven or a person known in life now in heaven, the past event may be a single childhood location or an entire spectrum of life experience. But the degree of consistency remains high.

In stark contrast, when people have fever hallucinations, or take hallucinogenic drugs, or suffer from brain damage, the results are never consistent in any way at all. Some people will experience travel upwards towards a light, a guide from the spirit world and an experience that takes place in the past, others will experience terrifying pursuit by ice cream trucks across a desert and still others will experience sexual gratification involving ping-pong balls. There's no consistency on any level in dream or hallucinatory experiences.

The only way we can invoke this level of consistency in "hallucinations" is by directly simulating certain brain centres. In other words the only way we know that we can have consistent experiences across individuals is when there is a consistent objective stimulus causing the experience.

Since the experiences you describe are all consistent on some level, what conclusion does that allow you to draw about the cause?

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Blake

The only way we can invoke this level of consistency in "hallucinations" is by directly simulating certain brain centres. In other words the only way we know that we can have consistent experiences across individuals is when there is a consistent objective stimulus causing the experience.

Since the experiences you describe are all consistent on some level, what conclusion does that allow you to draw about the cause?

Would the cessation of oxygenated blood flow to the brain be considered a "consistent objective stimulus?"

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Miller

Would the cessation of oxygenated blood flow to the brain be considered a "consistent objective stimulus?"

Not for the brain it isn't, no.

While LSD or oxygen deprivation may be consistent stimuli by some standards, there is no evidence that they actually produce consistent results, nor any plausible mechanism as to how they could do so. The chaotic nature of the brain should , and as far as we can tell does, result in random patterns from these stimuli, with regions interconnecting at random.

While it's possible that there is something truly consistent and predictable happening with prolonged, near-fatal oxygen deprivation that results in predictable results, I have yet to see any evidence that this is true or even any logical reason why it should be true.

One would expect that the areas that were most active, and therefore most ATP deprived, when the deprivation began would malfunction first, and the areas that were least active would function last. In other hallucinations that sort of amplification.suppression of activity pattern causes random experience, because in some people they are thinking of the past, in others they are struggling to calculate dosages of medication or trying to communicate to the people around them and so forth. Each experience should be utterly unique because the brain activity at the onset should be utterly unique.

When we start seeing consistent experience, it implies a consistent objective stimulus of a kind not seen in any known hallucination resulting from large scale brain malfunction.

You seem to be engaging a syllogism:

Consistent experience always derives from consistent stimulus.
Ingesting LSD is a consistent stimulus.
Therefore all people ingesting LSD should share the same experience.

Err, no. All crows are black birds, that doesn't allow you to conclude that all black birds are crows.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Blake

While LSD or oxygen deprivation may be consistent stimuli by some standards, there is no evidence that they actually produce consistent results...

You mean, other than the commonality of near death experiences?

...nor any plausible mechanism as to how they could do so.

Which theory explaining this phenomenon does have a plausible mechanic behind it?

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Miller

You mean, other than the commonality of near death experiences?

Which is boldly begging the question...

Which theory explaining this phenomenon does have a plausible mechanic behind it?

...combined with an argument from ignorance.

[aruvqan]

They would never put me on. I died on the operating table twice, and I have absolutely no experiences of anything ... the only reason I know I was mostly dead [heh] was because the doctors told me so.

Same as my UFO experience. I surmise it was a meteorite coming in for a landing, but since I never bothered to report it, or ask any questions about it I will never know what that bright green streak in the sky that looked like it made like a cosmic dirt dart back in the mid 80s near Rochester NU will always be an unidentified object whizzing overhead to me and my mom =)

[Half Man Half Wit]

Originally Posted by Blake

The degree of consistency you described is something never experienced in any known dream state.

That's a rather bold assertion. It seems to me that, for instance, the phenomenology of sleep paralysis is similarly consistent -- consistent enough, at least, to be thought to be at least partly responsible for the 'nightly visitation' cluster of phenomena, ranging from chest-squatting demons to alien abductions across times and cultures.

Also, as this thread shows, it's to a certain extent a matter of taste what to call consistent -- if you abstract enough, you can find consistency in any set of experiences, without this telling you anything beyond the trivial fact that all of these experiences are human.

An interesting point is the similarity of NDEs with experiences during G-LOC, g-force induced loss of consciousness. Essentially all of the classical NDE features are present -- however, the individuals having the experience aren't anywhere 'near death' by any stretch of the definition. Instead, it seems that the experience is a generic feature of a loss of consciousness due to ischemia/loss of adequate oxygen supply.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Blake

Which is boldly begging the question...

How do you figure? We have a common situation: the halt of oxygenated blood flow to the brain. We have a common result: so called "near death" experiences. How are near death experiences not a consistent result of an oxygen-starved brain?

...combined with an argument from ignorance.

Again, I'm not sure how you see that. There is no theory to explain this that has a plausible mechanic behind it. If lack of a plausible mechanic is reason enough to discount one theory, then we must, perforce, discount all theories, and we're left with nothing to talk about.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Miller

How do you figure? We have a common situation: the halt of oxygenated blood flow to the brain. We have a common result: so called "near death" experiences. How are near death experiences not a consistent result of an oxygen-starved brain?

Where is you r evidence that they are?

Again, I'm not sure how you see that. There is no theory to explain this that has a plausible mechanic behind it. If lack of a plausible mechanic is reason enough to discount one theory, then we must, perforce, discount all theories, and we're left with nothing to talk about.

Precisely. It's an argument from ignorance.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Blake

Where is your evidence that they are?

I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what you're asking here.

Precisely. It's an argument from ignorance.

You know, I've never been good with all these fancy logic terms, so I looked "argument from ignorance" up on wikipedia, and this is what I got. Now, maybe it's just me, but I really don't see how that applies to what I just said. Maybe you can help me out on that?

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Half Man Half Wit

That's a rather bold assertion. It seems to me that, for instance, the phenomenology of sleep paralysis is similarly consistent -- consistent enough, at least, to be thought to be at least partly responsible for the 'nightly visitation' cluster of phenomena, ranging from chest-squatting demons to alien abductions across times and cultures.

The only similarity in those phenomena is the paralysis. As you yourself note, the other components may involve travel or staying still, they may involve sexual gratification or physical torment and suffocation, they may involve aliens, witches or demons or fantasies of drowning or being smothered. There is no consistency at all beyond the paralysis.

And the paralysis is not a dream state. The paralysis is a very real, indisputable physiological state.

IOW the example you give is not of a commonality within a dream state. The only commonality stems from the the objectively real state of paralysis, the dream components all differ greatly.

So once again, the evidence suggests that the only way to get consistent experience is consistent, objective stimulus, even within a dream state.

Also, as this thread shows, it's to a certain extent a matter of taste what to call consistent -- if you abstract enough, you can find consistency in any set of experiences, without this telling you anything beyond the trivial fact that all of these experiences are human.

I dispute that.

All human experience will differ of course. That doesn't mean that no humans have common experiences or that we are unable to objectively categorise experiences. You surely don't dispute that 99.99% of humans think fire is hot, for example?

The simplest test of commonlaity is the "reasonable man" standard used by courts.

Imagine that an author creates a story where the protagonist dies, ascends towards alight and enters the the spirit world with the assistance of a benevolent spirit guide, and in the spirit world relives past events from childhood. The protagonist is then revived and returns to the waking world. If this author sues another writer because she plagiarised her work, would a jury be likely to find in her favour based on the commonality of the stories presented here? At the very least would the case get a hearing in court without immediate dismissal?

If you agree that it would have a chance of winning such a plagiarism case then you must agree that the similarity is objective, not subjective and simply based on common humanity.

An interesting point is the similarity of NDEs with experiences during G-LOC, g-force induced loss of consciousness. Essentially all of the classical NDE features are present ...

This is something I know nothing about. Do you have a reputable reference showing that such people experience angelic visitations, revisit past life etc?

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Miller

I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what you're asking here.

I am asking for evidence for the claims you make.

You know, I've never been good with all these fancy logic terms, so I looked "argument from ignorance" up on wikipedia, and this is what I got. Now, maybe it's just me, but I really don't see how that applies to what I just said. Maybe you can help me out on that?

A claim that the lack of a plausible mechanic is evidence that these experiences must be a dream state is a classic argument from ignorance.

See your own reference for details.

[Half Man Half Wit]

Originally Posted by Blake

The only similarity in those phenomena is the paralysis.

There are other common threads -- visitations, fear to the point of panic, noises such as static, pops, up to loud bangs, flashes of light etc. Not all of those are present in all episodes of paralysis, but then again, not everybody sees a white light at the end of a tunnel, converses with angelic beings or the deceased, has his life flash before his eyes etc.

If you agree that it would have a chance of winning such a plagiarism case then you must agree that the similarity is objective, not subjective and simply based on common humanity.

No, if I agree that there is a chance of winning such a case, then I am saying that to some (judges), there is sufficient commonality within the cases, while to others, there isn't -- i.e. that the consistency is subjective; only if I said that such a case would always be won would I be saying that there is an objective consistency. And there are certainly NDE stories dissimilar enough not to immediately conjure up associations of a common cause. Of course, there are also strikingly similar stories, just as there are strikingly similar abduction stories from sufferers of sleep paralysis, but this doesn't detract from my point.

This is something I know nothing about. Do you have a reputable reference showing that such people experience angelic visitations, revisit past life etc?

Most of it is work done by James Whinnery - here's a short outline. Here's a more comprehensive paper of his, though I haven't read it in full and don't know how in depth the phenomenology of the 'dream episodes' during G-LOC is discussed (abstract, pdf link). That's also the paper cited in the classic Lancet study by Pim van Lommel on NDEs (pdf link), which concludes:

And yet, neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe (and hence of the hippocampus) during neurosurgery for epilepsy, with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia), and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots, or as in hyperventilation followed by valsalva manoeuvre.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Half Man Half Wit

There are other common threads -- visitations, fear to the point of panic, noises such as static, pops, up to loud bangs, flashes of light etc. Not all of those are present in all episodes of paralysis, but then again, not everybody sees a white light at the end of a tunnel, converses with angelic beings or the deceased, has his life flash before his eyes etc.

That may be the case. I don't know enough about it.

I am only addressing the examples given in the OP, which do all have similarities. I really don't know enough to say that all or a majority of NDE stories are consistent ( and I don't care enough to make a great effort finding out). But the OP certainly can't deny that the example she has givens how a high degree of consistency.


And thanks for the links. I will peruse them as time permits and get back with my thoughts, an event that I am sure you are awaiting keenly.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Blake

I am asking for evidence for the claims you make.

I'm sorry, I'm really not trying to be difficult, but I don't know what claim you're talking about. I thought I was restating the premises of the discussion:

1) People die - their heart stops beating, and their brains become starved for oxygen.

2) While in this state, they sometimes experience a certain range sensations and visions.

I don't need to cite this, right? We both agree that these are things that happen?

Okay, so, postulate: when a brain becomes starved for oxygen and begins to die, it starts to malfunction. And it tends to malfunction in more or less the same way for most people: it produces a certain range of sensations and visions.

So, there. I'm not sure what needs to be cited. I'm not saying this is proven fact, but do you have a better explanation for what's going on here?

A claim that the lack of a plausible mechanic is evidence that these experiences must be a dream state is a classic argument from ignorance.

See your own reference for details.

But that's not what I'm saying.

Okay, we have several competing theories. Each one has a different set of pros and cons. We're trying to figure out which one is the best theory. One "con" is "Theory has not been proven in a lab." That's a pretty big "con." But, turns out, it's a "con" all the theories have. So, when we try to decide which of these theories is best, that's not really a meaningful criteria to judge the theories one way or the other.

[Half Man Half Wit]

Heh, something interesting I just stumbled across is the research by Stephen Thaler, who works on AI and especially on artificial neural networks -- apparently, if you simulate such a network's 'death' by step by step disassembling its connections, it relives its previous history -- reproducing previously trained outputs to inputs that it was presented with without being actually given the input -- and then, towards the end of its 'dying', generates apparently novel output ('experience'). He's even incorporated this process into a 'Creativity Machine', which is allegedly able to come up with novel strategies more efficiently than genetic algorithms... Unfortunately, I can't seem to find much of relevance on his work online, his website only offers a not very informative summary.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Blake

Not for the brain it isn't, no.

While LSD or oxygen deprivation may be consistent stimuli by some standards, there is no evidence that they actually produce consistent results, nor any plausible mechanism as to how they could do so.

Not true. Our visual resolution is concentrated towards to the center of our visual field. Stimulate the visual cortex all at once and that can plausibly explain why you get a tunnel-into-light effect. As for floating, well that's often how memory works; we'll imagine a viewpoint floating somewhat high in the room. As for the rest of the details, they aren't all that consistent; again, only the experiences that sounds properly mystical and afterlifish tend to be reported.

Like the previously mentioned abduction hallucination, they seem to be at most consistent in pattern but vary a lot in content. People "abducted" think they are carried off and experience paralysis, often sexual assault; but the details change according to culture and location. Different "aliens" are described according to the most popular ones in that particular culture; if they look human, they tend to look blond in nations with lots of blonds, dark skinned in regions full of dark skinned people. And in other times the same scenarios was described, but with angels and clouds, faeries and horses, or djinn and flying carpets instead of aliens and spaceships.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Miller

I'm sorry, I'm really not trying to be difficult, but I don't know what claim you're talking about. I thought I was restating the premises of the discussion:

1) People die - their heart stops beating, and their brains become starved for oxygen.

2) While in this state, they sometimes experience a certain range sensations and visions.

I think what he is challenging is the claim that there is much commonality in the reports of near death experiences. If you read the claims, there is a wide range of experiences, the sum commonality of which is the subjects had some sort of dream or hallucination.

[Face Intentionally Left Blank]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

It is by all the evidence just a dream/hallucination.

I've come to believe as you seem to, that it's the misfires of a dying brain. What I wonder is, if they are your last moments of thought, do you then, from your perspective, perceive that you spend eternity there? Is this, in effect, an, "afterlife"? If so, I need to get to work on creating mine, in hopes that I can stay focused on it as I pass, so that I can have a really kick-ass hereafter.

Perhaps I need to watch Machete a bunch more times.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Face Intentionally Left Blank

I've come to believe as you seem to, that it's the misfires of a dying brain. What I wonder is, if they are your last moments of thought, do you then, from your perspective, perceive that you spend eternity there? Is this, in effect, an, "afterlife"?

No; the brain has a finite processing speed, therefore it's simply impossible for it to provide you with an eternal experience in finite time.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

No; the brain has a finite processing speed, therefore it's simply impossible for it to provide you with an eternal experience in finite time.

But it could be an illusion of eternity, followed by death.

[Face Intentionally Left Blank]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

No; the brain has a finite processing speed, therefore it's simply impossible for it to provide you with an eternal experience in finite time.

Understood and agreed. Since there is no way to perceive non-existence, though, your final thoughts might have the feel of 'forever' to them, without providing many day-to-day details - you'd essentially be stuck in those last few seconds, without really noticing, because you're dead. It IS the product of a misfiring mind, I would imagine most of it is nebulous and generalized anyway. Hmm, sounds like I'm heading down a whole weird road of perception and semantics. I think I'll just back slowly away from myself now. . .

I'm just spitballin'. Random thoughts I never really get the opportunity to talk about, for fear of those looks I so often get.

[cosmosdan]

Originally Posted by mike ahndembroak

I imagine a few of you have seen this show on the bio channel, it deals with stories of people who have clinically died and come back to life. While there stories have some things in common ( bright beautiful light, an overwhelming sense of peace) there are some drastic differences, some see angels, while others see relatives. some are on stairs while others are floating. some are getting life reviews while others are whisked back to there childhood homes. am I alone in thinking that the "hereafter" would be more systematic than that. wouldn't everyone have the same experience as everyone else. could this be evidence that these are nothing more than a "dream state"?

Just watched a movie on this and they pointed out that astronauts in training in the centrifuge thingy would black out and experience some of the same things that people in near death experiences reported,leading doctors to think it was all brain related. They did cite one case where a man said he was hovering over the operating table and reported things accurately that they could not explain him knowing.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by cosmosdan

They did cite one case where a man said he was hovering over the operating table and reported things accurately that they could not explain him knowing.

Being unconscious on an operating table doesn't mean that your brain still isn't taking in information. It's a bad idea to for example comment on how "boy, that's really going to hurt when he wakes up" because the patient then probably will hurt more when he wakes up thanks to the power of suggestion. He may have been unconscious, but his brain was listening.

As for "hovering over the operating table", as I said that's a common feature of memories and imagination, we often picture scenes as if viewed from the side and up in the air a bit.

[ralph124c]

What about people who wind up in hell? Do they have truly terrifying NDEs? I'd like to read about these!

[cosmosdan]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

Being unconscious on an operating table doesn't mean that your brain still isn't taking in information. It's a bad idea to for example comment on how "boy, that's really going to hurt when he wakes up" because the patient then probably will hurt more when he wakes up thanks to the power of suggestion. He may have been unconscious, but his brain was listening.

As for "hovering over the operating table", as I said that's a common feature of memories and imagination, we often picture scenes as if viewed from the side and up in the air a bit.

It wasn't just that. The operation required that his head and face be covered and yet he described things he couldn't have seen or known without seeing.

Only a report, doesn't prove anything.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by cosmosdan

It wasn't just that. The operation required that his head and face be covered and yet he described things he couldn't have seen or known without seeing.

Only a report, doesn't prove anything.

I'd like to see a cite on this particular case.

[cosmosdan]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

I'd like to see a cite on this particular case.

Just went and looked it up. It was from National geographic, called, The Moment of Death. It was made in 2008 and looks like it will air on their channel again Jan 21

http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...ideos/05707_00 You can watch a brief clip.

It was pretty interesting. Most of the show was about what we've learned about cells and the brain concerning death. Hypothermia Comas, etc. It's fairly scientific and that particular case is offered at the end as something they can't quite explain.

[cosmosdan]

I went back and watched it again. The guy's name was Al Sullivan and he was having a multiple bypass. He was behind a drape and his eyes were taped shut. The surgeon had a habit of holding his hands in and pointing with his elbows as he instructed his assistants. Al said he saw this actions and other things from outside his body. It's the only mention in the show of something they have no explanation for.

Dr. Bruce Greyson documented perhaps one of the most compelling examples of a person who had a NDE and observed events while outside of his body which were later verified by others. The only way that these events could have been observed by the experiencer was if in fact he was outside of his body. Al Sullivan was a 55 year old truck driver who was undergoing triple by-pass surgery when he had a powerful NDE that included an encounter with his deceased mother and brother-in-law, who told Al to go back to his to tell one of his neighbors that their son with lymphoma will be OK. Furthermore, during the NDE, Al accurately noticed that the surgeon operating on him was flapping his arms in an unusual fashion, with his hands in his armpits. When he came back to his body after the surgery was over, the surgeon was startled that Al could describe his own arm flapping, which was his idiosyncratic method of keeping his hands sterile.

[Grateful-UnDead]

I did a quick Google on the "Near Death Experience" and came up with this from The University of Virginia Health System; it seems relevant to many of the questions being discussed in this thread:

http://www.nderf.org/FAQs.htm

[flatlined]

(how do I do quotes?)

Aruvqan, I had an experience much like yours. Dead for 7 minutes and I only knew about it because I was told afterwards. I felt cheated.

The most amazing thing I've seen in the beautiful desert skies was a bright, bluewhite object about as big as my little fingernail suddenly flew out of the sky at incredible speed, got to about 80 degrees above the horizon then exploded into 5 - 7 fragments. I am so lame that I never considered that it was anything but a metorite.

[aruvqan]

Originally Posted by flatlined

(how do I do quotes?)

Aruvqan, I had an experience much like yours. Dead for 7 minutes and I only knew about it because I was told afterwards. I felt cheated.

The most amazing thing I've seen in the beautiful desert skies was a bright, bluewhite object about as big as my little fingernail suddenly flew out of the sky at incredible speed, got to about 80 degrees above the horizon then exploded into 5 - 7 fragments. I am so lame that I never considered that it was anything but a metorite.

I think that most of the time they don't bother telling people, though I would be more than willing to bet that once some people are told, they retro imagine something happened because they can not conceive of *not* having a NDE.

I never thought it was anything except a meteorite =) I just like yanking peoples chains because technically I do not 100% know it was a meteorite because I never bothered finding out so by the technical definition of the term it is an actual no shit *UNIDENTIFIED* flying object. Not all objects in space have to be ships =)

[flatlined]

I do remember that the day after surgery, there was a HUGE earthquake. I woke up and everything was shaking. I could hear things falling off shelves and people falling. Scared me to death because I knew I should get into the doorsill and I couldn't get up.

That didn't happen. Drugs and physical trama can do some really interesting things to the mind.

I have now deceided that what I saw was a UFO that had been shot down by Home Land Security. Of course the media was blacked out by the evil government. Don't try to confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by flatlined

(how do I do quotes?)

You can:

Click "Quote" at the bottom of the post you want to quote, or click the multiquote button to quote more than one.

Or, you can copy and paste what you want to quote into your own post, then highlight it and click the quote icon above the posting box; it looks like a comic strip word-bubble.

Or you can manually add the quote tags, like so (remove the * to make it work): [*QUOTE]What you want to quote.[/QUOTE*]

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by mike ahndembroak

am I alone in thinking that the "hereafter" would be more systematic than that. wouldn't everyone have the same experience as everyone else. could this be evidence that these are nothing more than a "dream state"?

You are not alone, but you are using what we expect from this world which is order, rules, repeatable results. It doesn't work that way, nor are we designed to operate that way. We are loved children of God, God has designed our eternal (after) life based on how we are made on a personal level. You will not experience the same thing as anyone else, though there may be similarities to some, differences to others.

From what I know I would expect very different experiences.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

From what I know I would expect very different experiences.

And yet we are told we will meet relatives who died before us. How does that work, if our experiences are very different?

[fuzzypickles]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

And yet we are told we will meet relatives who died before us. How does that work, if our experiences are very different?

I've had NDE-style experiences where I met my relatives who haven't been born yet. Which makes sense, in a way, if you've read Stephen Hawking.

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

It is by all the evidence just a dream/hallucination.

How do you know that the dream isn't actually reality? Many faiths, esp. Hinduism, believe exactly that.

[flatlined]

Thank you so much!

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

You can:

Click "Quote" at the bottom of the post you want to quote, or click the multiquote button to quote more than one.

Or you can manually add the quote tags, like so (remove the * to make it work): [*QUOTE]What you want to quote.[/QUOTE*]

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by fuzzypickles

How do you know that the dream isn't actually reality? Many faiths, esp. Hinduism, believe exactly that.

Dreams are glimpses into the spiritual, and they are given by God many times in scriptures, along with visions (which may be though of as hallucination).

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

And yet we are told we will meet relatives who died before us. How does that work, if our experiences are very different?

Why does it matter how it works? God determines what you will see, He decides. If He wants you to see your relatives, He did it because it's what you personally need regardless of what another person needs/gets.

Also who told you you (we) will get to meet relatives. You may meet Jesus, you may meet Buddha, perhaps Satan. God determines exactly what you need at that time for your ultimate good. Either way it's up to Him and Him alone.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

Why does it matter how it works? God determines what you will see, He decides. If He wants you to see your relatives, He did it because it's what you personally need regardless of what another person needs/gets.

It is unlikely my relatives will meet me in Heaven, because I, based on my experience, won't be there for them to see. Unless the appearance of one's relatives in the afterlife is all a hallucination, that is.

[glenpsca]

I read this book where this women went to hell, she said she was in this beautiful field with all these multicolored flowers and at perfect peace and bright lights everywhere.

Her past family members came to her and were all young and perfect. They hugged her and kissed her.

Then after a few seconds, it all dissipated and she was in hell and then her family members transformed into these grotesque creatures that stunk and began to yell at her in this vile language. She had been tricked into thinking she was in a perfect afterlife.

If they don't go immediately to heaven and see angels, then I believe they are being tricked that they are going to a beautiful peaceful place, so this makes them think that even when they come back to life, they can expect to go to this place when they die. But it's a lie. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Some go into darkness or a dark cave before they see a beautiful light. That's a clue they have gone to hell.

With so many people dying and being brought back with modern medical science, if they went to hell and saw it, then they would lose their free will. If Satan wants them when they die, then of course he would trick them the first time they go there to hell.

Very scary indeed.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by glenpsca

I read this book where this women went to hell, she said she was in this beautiful field with all these multicolored flowers and at perfect peace and bright lights everywhere.

Her past family members came to her and were all young and perfect. They hugged her and kissed her.

Then after a few seconds, it all dissipated and she was in hell and then her family members transformed into these grotesque creatures that stunk and began to yell at her in this vile language. She had been tricked into thinking she was in a perfect afterlife.

If they don't go immediately to heaven and see angels, then I believe they are being tricked that they are going to a beautiful peaceful place, so this makes them think that even when they come back to life, they can expect to go to this place when they die. But it's a lie. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Some go into darkness or a dark cave before they see a beautiful light. That's a clue they have gone to hell.

With so many people dying and being brought back with modern medical science, if they went to hell and saw it, then they would lose their free will. If Satan wants them when they die, then of course he would trick them the first time they go there to hell.

Very scary indeed.

And where did you acquire this information?

[glenpsca]

A Divine Revelation of Hell by Mary K Baxter.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by glenpsca

A Divine Revelation of Hell by Mary K Baxter.

And you believe it because she said so?

[ajb867]

In my experiences with death / occasionally reversing death my conclusion is there is no after life. When you're dead that is it, lights out game over.

All these claims are most likely what people saw during states of hypoxia. If they even remember anything from said experience. My experience has been people have no clue they have actually died if they are brought back to a functioning state. If you chose to tell them, they look startled. Seriously...

[glenpsca]

Mary K Baxter claims she left her body and went to hell, and it was several times. She does not claim to have died and I believe her. It's call faith.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by glenpsca

Mary K Baxter claims she left her body and went to hell, and it was several times. She does not claim to have died and I believe her. It's call faith.

You can find thousands of unverified accounts of people that claim they have divine knowledge. Why do you believe this one in particular?