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  #1  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:14 AM
isaiahrobinson isaiahrobinson is offline
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Are there any examples of professional boxers getting into fights with regular people?

This stems from a discussion I had with a friend: we were wondering who would win in a bar fight between a light, small pro boxer like Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacquiao, and a regular big guy. Assume the big guy is 6'2, strong, in good shape, regularly gets into bar fights, usually wins them. But has never done boxing training before. (Also assume neither one is drunker than the other). Who's likely to win? I figured it would probably be the big guy, because the size and strength advantages would be overwhelming. Worst came to worst he could just wrap them up. But my friend (an amateur boxer) said that all Mayweather or Pacquiao would need to do is get in a couple hard body shots and, crack, the big guy has some broken ribs. Fight over. And with their hand speed, and with no gloves, he argued, they're always going to get in a couple body shots at least. So if anyone has well-informed thoughts on that I'd be interested.

But to avoid this simply being a debate, I'd prefer if people had any actual examples. Have there been pro boxers who've been in fights with members of the public before? A few years ago Ricky Hatton said people try to start fights with him in bars a whole lot, but he always declines "because I know I could beat them".

So has it actualy happened before with any big-name boxers? Surely Tyson must have snapped on someone at some point?
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  #2  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:18 AM
Annie-Xmas Annie-Xmas is offline
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Did someobody mention Tyson?

Last edited by Annie-Xmas; 01-25-2011 at 10:18 AM..
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  #3  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:26 AM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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Originally Posted by isaiahrobinson View Post
This stems from a discussion I had with a friend: we were wondering who would win in a bar fight between a light, small pro boxer like Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacquiao, and a regular big guy. Assume the big guy is 6'2, strong, in good shape, regularly gets into bar fights, usually wins them. But has never done boxing training before. (Also assume neither one is drunker than the other). Who's likely to win? I figured it would probably be the big guy, because the size and strength advantages would be overwhelming. Worst came to worst he could just wrap them up. But my friend (an amateur boxer) said that all Mayweather or Pacquiao would need to do is get in a couple hard body shots and, crack, the big guy has some broken ribs. Fight over. And with their hand speed, and with no gloves, he argued, they're always going to get in a couple body shots at least. So if anyone has well-informed thoughts on that I'd be interested.
No offense, but you are out of your mind. You think that some random 6'2" untrained juicehead in a bar would beat Floyd Mayweather in a fight? Your goon would be unable to handle the quickness and technique.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:33 AM
Yorikke Yorikke is offline
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I can't imagine a "civilian" taking a few Pacquiao body shots in a second or two and not keeling over.

ETA : IOW, your friend is right.

Joe

Last edited by Yorikke; 01-25-2011 at 10:34 AM..
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  #5  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:37 AM
Turek Turek is offline
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Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
No offense, but you are out of your mind. You think that some random 6'2" untrained juicehead in a bar would beat Floyd Mayweather in a fight? Your goon would be unable to handle the quickness and technique.
I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. Bar fighting != boxing. Technique ain't going to do a lot when the fight goes to ground and the guy that weighs 80 pounds more than you is on top of you wailing away at your head. But hey, I've never been in a bar fight or boxed.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:49 AM
Spit Spit is offline
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If they started off facing each other in a clear area, the boxer would win hands down.

Having been in a few bar fights, I can assure you that they do not occur in such clean conditions. Guy A gets mad at Guy B for some perceived offense, and a few minutes later Guy B finds himself on the floor/beer bottle smashed over his head/in a choke hold. Once the boxer is on the ground, or no longer facing his opponent, it's over.

Also, since there would probably never be bar fights if not for the alcohol, you would have to be sure that they both had equal amounts of alcohol for their size/weight to be even- which would be near impossible to do scientifically- and still keep the rage going inside of both individuals.

An Olympic wrestler (high school & college as well) OTOH, will kick serious ass. (Given your bar scene parameters)
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  #7  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:54 AM
kunilou kunilou is offline
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Sonny Liston had 54 fights, won 39 of them by knockout, and was arrested 19 times. In an altercation with a police officer, Liston broke the cop's knee, gashed his face, and took the gun away from him.

That was fighting an armed cop. Can you imagine what Liston could have done to a drunk in a bar?
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  #8  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:57 AM
Philster Philster is offline
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Pro boxer takes on a group of men in street scuffle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZGqUgu_gQ4

Formally trained boxer takes on neighborhood bully/thug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX2qn6nrQZs

Kung Fu master takes on street fighter/punk/whatever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPC35Lv35UI
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  #9  
Old 01-25-2011, 11:08 AM
Crotalus Crotalus is offline
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Aside from the various techniques we think of as boxing (guarding face and body, bobbing and weaving), boxers have developed a particular form of strength. They can put a huge amount of force into a short motion of their arms. One thing that a trained boxer at any level can generally do way better than any bar or street fighter is to really, really hurt someone with a short punch.

I cast my vote with the OP's friend.
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  #10  
Old 01-25-2011, 11:10 AM
pseudotriton ruber ruber pseudotriton ruber ruber is offline
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More interesting question is whether two big guys are enough to take on a professional boxer. I put the over/under at three, personally.
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  #11  
Old 01-25-2011, 11:15 AM
Floater Floater is offline
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Do cage fighters in drag count?

I have been told about a rural dance when some of the local talent disliked that some blokes from elsewhere competed with them about the girls, so the biggest of them (let's call him A) went up to the smallest visitor (B) and asked him if he would like to take a walk around the corner to the back of the building. The bouncer (who told me the story) knew B and thought that although he could probably handle the situation on his own decided to follow them out anyway. When they had come out in the open B took his hand out of his pocket, turned around and hit A once. Hard. On the chin. And A fell like a logged tree. What he didn't know, but the bouncer did, was that not only was B small. He was also reigning county champion in his weight class.
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  #12  
Old 01-25-2011, 11:24 AM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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If Raging Bull is faithful to the truth, then boxer Jake La Motta often delivered beatings on regular people, including members of his family.
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  #13  
Old 01-25-2011, 11:26 AM
shijinn shijinn is offline
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didn't Mike Tyson break his own hands punching someone without his gloves on?
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  #14  
Old 01-25-2011, 11:57 AM
Philster Philster is offline
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Mike Tyson fought Mitch Green, another pro fighter, in a street fight. Mitch Green got a black eye from the encounter. Mike Tyson hurt his own hand, too. That's what happens when someone smashes their face into your knuckles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkigeXrliwc

.

Last edited by Philster; 01-25-2011 at 12:00 PM..
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  #15  
Old 01-25-2011, 04:15 PM
brocks brocks is offline
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Interesting question. I think I'm taking the minority opinion here.

My first observation is that boxing has weight classes for a reason, and not many established pros are successful when they move up in class, even though the difference is only five pounds or so.

I'll probably screw this up since I'm going from memory, but I remember back in the 60's there was a light-heavy named Bob Foster, who was knocking everybody out in his class. He really ran out of opponents, so he thought it might be fun to fight the heavyweight champ, Joe Frazier. Frazier was actually small for a heavyweight by today's standards, but he annihilated Foster.

Heavier guys don't just hit harder, they also absorb punishment better. A blow that will knock out a welterweight might just make a heavyweight mad.

Another thing --- how many guys are totally untrained? 50 years ago, a big guy was likely just big from genetics, and may not have known how to fight. But most big guys today spend a lot of time in the gym, and they're not just big, they're strong and fast (it's a myth that weights make you musclebound). And there's very likely a heavy bag where they work out, and while they may not spar or train like a real boxer, they might hit it enough to get good at hitting people. And most guys learn enough from their dad or PE class or wherever to know to keep their hands up and not make big looping swings, like the guys in the movies do when they fight the hero.

Now, obviously, a trained boxer has a big advantage over a regular guy. The question is, how much weight is needed to overcome that advantage?

If we're talking about a lightweight versus a heavyweight, the classes around a lighweight differ by only 6 or 7 pounds, so that's enough to make a big difference among trained fighters. Maybe a guy slightly less talented, but still trained, can be ten pounds heavier and beat the smaller, faster guy. Maybe 20 pounds more, and he can be a lot less talented. It stands to reason that at some point, he can just be a regular guy in good shape, and still beat the boxer.

Maybe he has to weigh 100 pounds more; I don't know. But I find it very difficult to believe that, say, an NFL fullback couldn't beat up a decent lightweight boxer.

Maybe the boxer could outpoint the fullback in the ring, but as somebody else pointed out, it's different in a bar. If the big guy rushes the little guy and traps him against a wall, or gets him on the ground, then speed and technique don't mean too much.

And also as somebody else said, wrestling technique DOES carry over to bar fights, and would probably count for more than boxing skill.

Last edited by brocks; 01-25-2011 at 04:17 PM..
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Old 01-25-2011, 04:53 PM
isaiahrobinson isaiahrobinson is offline
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Well, the reason I initially thought the big guy would take it is because the size difference would really be phenomenal. It would be in a confined space so the pro wouldn't be able to dance away from him and move in for a combo every now and then, they'd be right up close. And we're not talking about a few inches - Mayweather, Pacquiao or Hatton would be standing a good 8 inches shorter than this hypothetical big guy. They'd barely be able to reach his face, let alone punch it. We're also talking a difference of probably about 4 stone, and a huge strength disparity. The big guy would probablybe able to - literally - push them over. Hold them away from him; punch down into their head; wrap them up, etc. He could throw them to the ground, get on top of them and start pounding away.

Nevertheless, as I said in the OP, my friend pointed out that somewhere in any of those scenarios, Mayweather is going to get in a couple of hard body shots somewhere, and I'm sure, with bare knuckles, those pack enough force to break ribs or cause serious tissue damage. So I guess it's just a question of whether those body shots would be enough.

Thanks for the videos, Philster and Floater. I've seen the cage fighter one before - it's superb - and the one with the beer-bellied fighter knocking down that scouse thug is brilliant as well. The only thing is that the guys getting knocked down in these videos don't look like they can fight at all really, and the size differences aren't very big (and those guys getting laid out by the cage fighters are paralytically drunk!). Still very satisfying to watch though.

kunilou, did Liston get jail time for beating up that policeman?

Annie-Xmas, what did Tyson actually do? All I could find was that he assaulted two people at some traffic lights.
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  #17  
Old 01-25-2011, 04:59 PM
isaiahrobinson isaiahrobinson is offline
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Also Philster that Tyson/Green fight is interesting. Sounds like Mitch was lucky to get away with just a cut. Although at least his face broke Tyson's hand, so it wasn't a complete loss!
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  #18  
Old 01-25-2011, 05:20 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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In a bar fight anything can happen, but size is often not the determining factor in such fights. Meanness, experience fighting, experience getting hit are all big factors. I can think of several guys I grew up with who were lucky to weight 140 lbs soaking wet, and I know of two in particular who were infamous in the small town I grew up in for beating up much, much bigger guys in bar fights (we're talking 6'4" 240 lbs men who worked in coal mines getting beat on by 19 year old guys who were 8 inches shorter and 85-90 pounds lighter.)

Is size an advantage? Sure, but not an insurmountable one, and based on many nights spent in rough back woods bars, I can tell you that ferocity and plain meanness tend to be what typically determines the outcome of fights in a bar.

A trained boxer is someone who maximizes their ability to deliver punches and mitigate or avoid punches many hours a day every day, for years on end. Any of the professional boxers mentioned in this thread are the best in the world at doing just that.

Would Mayweather get killed by a heavyweight professional boxer? Yes. Because said heavyweight boxer is also a person who has been training their entire life and is at the top of the world in doing what they do. They are so far different from some average big dude in a bar it's not even relevant.

A lot of people who are good at things sometimes don't realize just how different people who are professional superstars at things might be. For example a lot of us probably knew people growing up who were very good at football, basketball, soccer, baseball et cetera. How many of us knew one who was good enough to play professionally? How many of those were good enough to have long professional careers? How many of those are the equivalent of "Hall of Famers" in their respective sport? Guys like Mayweather are literally the best of the best of the best, there's a handful of people on the planet with both the training and talent.

Boxing isn't like Kung Fu or Tae Kwon Do or some other martial art that suburbanites practice after getting off work and mainly do for the calisthenics of it, boxing has its history in bare knuckle brawls. Obviously there's no weapons, kicking, or et cetera in boxing, but people who box professional don't tend to be people who grew up in the nicest places. Many professional boxers come from very rough backgrounds where they were fighting in the street long before anyone ever taught them how to lace up a pair of gloves.

If you wanted to square a boxer off against a trained grappler, or person trained in some form of fighting that involves grappling, and someone who was very good at it (we're talking professional/championship level), then a boxer would lose. But a random big guy in a bar that may have in his mind that he could tackle Mayweather or Pacquiao and try to put them in a headlock? Someone like that isn't going to be experienced at handling the speed at which a trained puncher can swing. Guys in UFC or other forms of professional MMA are trained at avoiding fast strikes and closing in to grapple, but again, those people are the best of the best, not some random guy in a bar.

Mayweather or Manny Pacquiao could hit some random guy in the bar on the bridge of the nose and knock them on their ass faster than that guy had ever seen anything move in his life.

Last edited by Martin Hyde; 01-25-2011 at 05:22 PM..
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  #19  
Old 01-25-2011, 05:48 PM
bucketybuck bucketybuck is offline
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As someone who has been in a few bar fights, I also wouldnt discount the massive stamina advantage most professional boxers will have.

Punching and grappling is very tiring. Many bar fights fizzle out after a short burst when the two guys realise they are already bloody knackered.

The big guy may have a weight advantage. He will need it when his arms feel like lead and Manny Pacquio is still dancing around picking his shots.
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  #20  
Old 01-25-2011, 05:51 PM
Crazyhorse Crazyhorse is offline
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Tyson and Liston brought more to those situations than their boxing training. They were already 'street fighters' before taking up boxing professionally and both could, and did, hold their own in many a bar fight or street brawl. The OP doesn't spell this out specifically but there is a big difference if, for the purposes of the question, the boxer is forced to only use traditional boxing technique or is free to brawl in any manner he chooses as the bar fighter would be. A boxer can pick up a chair and break it over someone's head just as well as the next guy. Size vs. skill aren't the only factors involved in a barroom brawl - it might just come down to who is the first to pick up something heavy and clobber the other guy with it while he isn't looking. For the question to really focus on the size vs. skill aspect, we would need some kind of ground rules like if weapons were allowed, if there was a formal start to the fight that both were aware of, or if it began by one sneak-attacking the other, and if so which one, etc.

In general though, a pro boxer has a lot more going for them than strong punches in open areas. Their training also makes them agile and light on their feet, very difficult to tire out and, maybe most importantly to this scenario, able to stoically get up and continue fighting even after receiving brutal injuries to the face, head and body that would probably cause the average bar goer, even a big one, to stay down on the floor until the ambulances arrived. Size and weight are factors working in favor of the bar fighter in some scenarios. A perfect knockout punch is one to the nerve that runs along the jawline and it will drop pretty much anyone of any size if it is delivered with enough power to the right place. The boxer is more likely to be able to land that punch, to dodge punches (or chairs or pool cues), less likely to fall down when hit or pushed, etc. There is really no way to predict based on what we know in the OP, but if I had to put my money on one it would be the boxer without hesitation.
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  #21  
Old 01-25-2011, 06:39 PM
treis treis is offline
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I seriously doubt anyone is going to be breaking ribs with punches. Has anyone suffered a broken rib from a punch in the UFC?
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  #22  
Old 01-25-2011, 06:41 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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I seriously doubt anyone is going to be breaking ribs with punches. Has anyone suffered a broken rib from a punch in the UFC?
Huh? It happens all the time.
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  #23  
Old 01-25-2011, 06:54 PM
bluezooky bluezooky is offline
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Former super bantamweight Jeff Fenech is known to have easily knocked out Peter Tunks in bar fight, I can't track down his weight however he played in the forwards for the Canterbury Bulldogs in the Australian Ruby League and is not a small guy.
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  #24  
Old 01-25-2011, 07:12 PM
kunilou kunilou is offline
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Originally Posted by isaiahrobinson View Post
kunilou, did Liston get jail time for beating up that policeman?
Nine months.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:29 PM
isaiahrobinson isaiahrobinson is offline
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I seriously doubt anyone is going to be breaking ribs with punches. Has anyone suffered a broken rib from a punch in the UFC?
Ricky Hatton broke 4 of Jose Luis Castillo's ribs with this body shot. And that's against another professional boxer, with gloves on. Hence why I've basically come around to agreeing with my friend on this - with their hand speed and movement no one is going to be able to stop a pro boxer getting in a body shot or two, and a bare-knuckle punch from a guy like Hatton is going to do serious damage.


I'm surprised there aren't more examples though. These guys are built to fight, that's all they do, and according to Hatton the smaller boxers in particular have wise guys trying to start with them all the time. And I can't imagine it takes much to provoke a punch from these people - guys like Mayweather and Tyson seem to have tempers on hair triggers. How come there aren't stories of pro boxers laying out regular people week after week? Or is it that they are, but most boxers just aren't really famous enough for most of us to hear about it?
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:54 PM
Cugel Cugel is offline
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Originally Posted by bluezooky View Post
Former super bantamweight Jeff Fenech is known to have easily knocked out Peter Tunks in bar fight, I can't track down his weight however he played in the forwards for the Canterbury Bulldogs in the Australian Ruby League and is not a small guy.
Tunksy wasn't huge but triple figures I'd say.
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  #27  
Old 01-25-2011, 09:21 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. Bar fighting != boxing. Technique ain't going to do a lot when the fight goes to ground and the guy that weighs 80 pounds more than you is on top of you wailing away at your head. But hey, I've never been in a bar fight or boxed.
Why don't we ask young Melosh here.

I've been in enough fights and trained in enough martial arts that I would place my money on the guy with the skill, speed, training and raw athleticism every time. By "technique" I'm not talking about some gay-ass taekwondo kata. I mean that the fight won't "go to ground" because the skilled boxer can just dance around landing blow after blow with impunity while the hapless goon just flails about.

Fighting is like any other athletic activity. You wouldn't ask if some 7 foot untrained guy in a bar could whoop Kobe Bryant in basketball, would you?
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:29 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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How come there aren't stories of pro boxers laying out regular people week after week? Or is it that they are, but most boxers just aren't really famous enough for most of us to hear about it?
Because any boxer who is famous enough for us to have heard of had enough of an entourage of bodyguards and handlers to keep the rifraff away.
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  #29  
Old 01-25-2011, 09:55 PM
I Love Me, Vol. I I Love Me, Vol. I is offline
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I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. Bar fighting != boxing. Technique ain't going to do a lot when the fight goes to ground and the guy that weighs 80 pounds more than you is on top of you wailing away at your head. But hey, I've never been in a bar fight or boxed.
It could not be any drier, or more cut up.

The fight ain't never gonna go to ground because the pro boxer will knock the big tough guy out with one punch. That's if he's feeling charitable.

If he's really mad at the amateur tough-guy, he might toy with him as a cat does a mouse--inflicting large amounts of pain, humiliation, damage, and blood-letting until the boxer either gets bored, shot, or the cops pull him away.

If the boxer is genuinely pissed off/insane/feels his life is in danger, he may choose to kill the big lug with his fist (the plural "fists" is unnecessary as the boxer more often than not could easily accomplish this with a single punch ).

I think many people greatly underestimate the differences in hand-speed, technique, quickness, instinct, and power between even a moderately-skilled pro boxer on the one hand, and a much-larger, perfectly-conditioned, vicious, motivated, but untrained brawler who has never lost a bar-fight (but none of those ass-kickings was against trained boxers, either).

Last edited by I Love Me, Vol. I; 01-25-2011 at 09:58 PM..
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  #30  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:07 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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My google-fu failed me, but didn't Jack Dempsey beat the shit out of two muggers when he was in his 70s?
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  #31  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:15 PM
MuleSkinner MuleSkinner is offline
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Originally Posted by brocks View Post
Another thing --- how many guys are totally untrained? 50 years ago, a big guy was likely just big from genetics, and may not have known how to fight. But most big guys today spend a lot of time in the gym, and they're not just big, they're strong and fast (it's a myth that weights make you musclebound).
You start off by inferring that most big guys aren't big from genetics but because they hit the gym and then you say it's a myth that weights make you musclebound. It's not a myth, btw. Along with getting in more protein and total calories, weight training is how one becomes musclebound.

Quote:
And there's very likely a heavy bag where they work out, and while they may not spar or train like a real boxer, they might hit it enough to get good at hitting people.
So most big guys go the the gym and hit a heavy bag? Most big guys don't do that.

Quote:
And most guys learn enough from their dad or PE class or wherever to know to keep their hands up and not make big looping swings, like the guys in the movies do when they fight the hero.
Don't know anyone that learned those sort of fighting techniques in gym class and what the average dad spends a few minutes of his life teaching his kid about fighting is going to be next to useless against a professional fighter.

Quote:
And also as somebody else said, wrestling technique DOES carry over to bar fights, and would probably count for more than boxing skill.
I doubt that also. Bar fights start standing and the boxer is going to first have to be taken to the ground. I've yet to see a bar fight turn into a wrestling match and I've seen a lot of bar fights.
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  #32  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:15 PM
Mr. Slant Mr.  Slant is offline
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I've sparred for fun with low-level amateur boxers.
Not great, not anywhere near pro, but well-trained by their coaches.
One thing that most people don't seem to realize about boxers is their phenomenal ability to avoid punches.
When you watch boxing on TV, you see guys getting hit a whole lot. They're getting hit by trained boxers who are very good at landing blows in that context.
The other thing that most people don't realize is that you can avoid most punches with a very small motion; even in a fairly crowded bar, many of those motions would still work.

Just because somebody looks like his job is easy on TV doesn't mean you can do it.....
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  #33  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:20 PM
Mr. Slant Mr.  Slant is offline
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Originally Posted by I Love Me, Vol. I View Post
SNIP
I think many people greatly underestimate the differences in hand-speed, technique, quickness, instinct, and power between even a moderately-skilled pro boxer on the one hand, and a much-larger, perfectly-conditioned, vicious, motivated, but untrained brawler who has never lost a bar-fight (but none of those ass-kickings was against trained boxers, either).
Okay. The quoted part of this post is EXACTLY what I was trying to get across in my post. When I sparred with a trained amateur boxer, I spend a solid minute punching at the air, and I don't think he moved two feet from where he started. Just for kicks, he landed several pulled punches on my temple, chin and ears. It didn't hurt at all, but I concluded that this guy who was literally half my size could have killed me with only minor difficulty.
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  #34  
Old 01-26-2011, 02:44 AM
kombatminipig kombatminipig is offline
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I've trained boxing, kickboxing and have now gone over to MMA, and from my experience boxing in itself does little when it comes to defense.
The fight will end in one of two ways, either by a punch severe enough to end the fight, or on the ground.

Should the fight remain standing, I doubt that the brawl will last more than one or two hits. I know that my own right hook will easily break somebody's jaw (as well as my fist), so whoever lands the first punch will have the fight. What you're pitting here is the boxer's experience (a boxer reads body language to anticipate a blow) and speed against the brawler's reach. The boxer's dilemma is that he has to get well within the brawler's range in order to land a punch, but he probably has some practice of this from sparring with bigger opponents.

Should the fight go to the ground, I'm guessing that each fighter will be using mostly raw strength and a minimum of technique. As mentioned, knowing some catch-wrestling technique is helpful, because landing blows at short range is difficult. The brawler may know how to use his elbows, which we'll presume that the boxer doesn't. Knees probably won't come in to action, unless either man is wearing shorts or a kilt.
The bigger man will have a very clear advantage once on the ground, tiring out his opponent. First man to reach full mount (and thus be able to land blows with any amount of force) will walk away.

This is of course presuming that they both brawl in a gentlemanly fashion, not using bottles, pool sticks, chairs, trickery, biting, fish hooking, testicle bashing, etc. Which in itself is rather unlikely.
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  #35  
Old 01-26-2011, 03:49 AM
Sam Stone Sam Stone is offline
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In my experience most real bar fights, as opposed to some kids pushing each other around in a parking lot until someone takes a swing at the other, start with a sucker punch and end pretty quickly, usually with one guy on the ground getting kicked and punched by the other. It's not typically like those Youtube videos.

Would a featherweight professional boxer beat a random larger person in an open street, where there's lots of room to dance around and the other guy isn't a real fighter but maybe someone who lost his temper or something? Sure.

Would the same guy beat a real streetfighter who weighed 80 lbs more than him, in an enclosed bar? Not unless he got in a lucky first shot.

I have a friend who was a street fighter when he was young. One of the toughest around. He was a bouncer in every seedy bar in our city. I saw him in action more than once. He was basically like an exploding wolverine. If it got to the point where he was going to fight you, there wouldn't be any warning. You'd get a shot in the head and then he'd be all over you, then you'd be on the ground. Fight over.

That's not what boxers train for.
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  #36  
Old 01-26-2011, 04:25 AM
don't ask don't ask is offline
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Years ago Australian boxer Shannan Taylor, at the time fighting at 10-7, was at a classy hotel having lunch with a friend. As they were leaving a member of the public stopped Taylor to shake hands and say hello. By the time he caught up with the friend he was outside being assaulted by 3 men.

Taylor tried to break up the fight and the men turned on him. He hit each of them once and the whole thing was over. Each of the men ended up in hospital and because he was a professional boxer Taylor was charged. The judge ruled that, since he only hit each guy once, Taylor had shown admirable restraint. He dismissed the charges.
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  #37  
Old 01-26-2011, 05:36 AM
handsomeharry handsomeharry is online now
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Originally Posted by treis View Post
I seriously doubt anyone is going to be breaking ribs with punches. Has anyone suffered a broken rib from a punch in the UFC?
While I believe that broken ribs can happen, it seems to me that the OP assumes that a broken rib, administered by Paquin, is a sure thing. I believe that is a little over optimistic.
My vote goes for too tough to call. Just because a boxer has training, that doesn't make him invincible.
I also believe that the Liston thing is no help, since he was a huge guy and we don't know about the cop. At least, I don't.

Best wishes,
hh
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  #38  
Old 01-26-2011, 06:12 AM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
I have a friend who was a street fighter when he was young. One of the toughest around. He was a bouncer in every seedy bar in our city. I saw him in action more than once. He was basically like an exploding wolverine. If it got to the point where he was going to fight you, there wouldn't be any warning. You'd get a shot in the head and then he'd be all over you, then you'd be on the ground. Fight over.

That's not what boxers train for.
Nonsense. He may be an "exploding wolverine" to the untrained mook in a bar, but to a professional boxer, his attack would be like the flailings of a clumsy child.

WTF is a "real street fighter" anyway? Did your friend use Ryu's Hadouken blast to defeat his opponents or something? Street fighter just means a big tough possibly somewhat trained guy whose been in a lot of fights with other big tough possibly somewhat trained guys. He would be fighting a guy who does nothing but train to fight and is in the top of his profession.
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  #39  
Old 01-26-2011, 06:53 AM
Philster Philster is offline
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With most things... Nothing guarantees anything, but some things do change the odds.

A trained boxer has better odds in a street fight (for a number of reasons), but given the incredible number of variables, only a general consensus can be reached about whether the odds improve for a boxer, because of a staggering number of anecdotes, wildcards/variables and other factors.

So, being a boxer can certainly improve one's chances, but it's not a guarantee of any sort. We will forever be locked into the "NBA argument", wherein we try to say that being tall is an advantage, only to have someone chime in with the Allen Iverson counterpoint.

Yes... we get it: Short people can play basketball, but being taller is -- GENERALLY -- better.

Being a trained boxer is -- GENERALLY -- better. This accepts that some 350 lb drunk slob might take down a 135 lb boxer.

Last edited by Philster; 01-26-2011 at 06:54 AM..
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  #40  
Old 01-26-2011, 07:51 AM
brocks brocks is offline
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Wrt boxer vs wrestler, when Muhammad Ali was banned from boxing (during his prime) he fought an exhibition (hazy on the details, but I think it was ten rounds) with some Japanese wrestler I had never heard of (I seem to remember they called him 'the Pelican' because of his enormous chin). In those days events like that were shown in arenas by closed circuit TV, and I paid 10 bucks or so to see it.

It was very disappointing. The wrestler immediately went to the ground and kept his legs pointed toward Ali, so he never got hit, but he did kick the crap out of Ali's legs. IIRC there was some concern about blood clots from the beating Ali's legs took.

I think most people will agree that Ali had decent hand speed, so it's not a given that a boxer can end a fight at will with someone who doesn't box.
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Old 01-26-2011, 08:08 AM
Meatros Meatros is offline
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Not too long ago a UFC fighter was filmed in a street fight, IIRC. This guy was beating on a girl and the UFC fighter came to the girls aid. It was a few months ago, so my memory might be fuzzy.

There's also the 'story' of Van Damme being laid out by the former hell's angel guy.
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  #42  
Old 01-26-2011, 08:11 AM
Spit Spit is offline
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Originally Posted by I Love Me, Vol. I View Post
It could not be any drier, or more cut up.

The fight ain't never gonna go to ground because the pro boxer will knock the big tough guy out with one punch. That's if he's feeling charitable.
The attacker is not going to be facing the boxer when the chain of events begin. The boxer will be standing at the urinal. The boxer will be taking a sip from his beer or laughing with a girl at the bar. The boxer will be playing Golden Tee.

In all of those scenarios, his back will be to the attacker who, if he is smart, will bash the boxer's head into the wall, bar, or console. Even a stupid attacker would most likely crack him in the head from behind with a bottle or other weapon, or at the very least throw him in a choke hold from behind and bring him to the ground.

Taking a punch to the face or getting unexpectedly hit in the head with a beer bottle are two completely different things, let me assure you.

It's like this- if I were in a bar fight, I would certainly want the boxer on my side, but in a bar fighting situation during the initiation of force he will be at a disadvantage. (As would anybody)
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  #43  
Old 01-26-2011, 08:18 AM
Wallenstein Wallenstein is offline
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Boxes also hit each other with gloved hands.

If a pro boxer gets in a decent head shot with an ungloved hand their opponent will hit the deck.

There are countless youtube clips of large bullies getting nailed with a single KO punch, mostly because a clean hit with a bare fist on the chin or temple pretty much guarantees a KO regardless of who you're fighting.

The skill bit, as noted, is in avoiding the punches in the first place until you can get your shot in.
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Old 01-26-2011, 08:41 AM
brocks brocks is offline
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Originally Posted by brocks View Post
Wrt boxer vs wrestler, when Muhammad Ali was banned from boxing (during his prime) he fought an exhibition (hazy on the details, but I think it was ten rounds) with some Japanese wrestler I had never heard of (I seem to remember they called him 'the Pelican' because of his enormous chin).
Well, too late to edit my post, but I decided to see if I could find anything about the exhibition on the Google. It turned out to be pretty easy, and there's even a Wikipedia article on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamma..._Antonio_Inoki


Not surprisingly, I got some stuff about it wrong.

It wasn't during Ali's exile, as I assumed; it was in 1976, when Ali was the reigning HW champ (and I should have known that, because I was in high school during Ali's exile). It was 15 rounds, and apparently the rules severely handicapped Inoki, i.e. he was not allowed to do what you would expect a wrestler to do against a boxer, namely tackle or throw him.

I don't think that changes the conclusion of my post --- even with a very good boxer, and even in conditions where he has room to move and is facing his opponent, he may not be able to land a blow.
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  #45  
Old 01-26-2011, 08:49 AM
pancakes3 pancakes3 is offline
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i think a lot of good points have been touched on, but i'll try to still give my 2 cents (and probably consolidate a lot of other people's points)

a fight like this really comes down to: does the big guy know the little guy is a boxer? if he doesn't, and approaches the fight like it's business as usual? he's going to wake up with a broken jaw - or not wake up at all. there's no question about that.

if the big guy KNOWS it's pacqiao, well he probably wouldn't pick the fight either. it's the paq man. but, if he's insistent on fighting, he would either sneak a first punch for a home run (when paq isn't looking) or try to grapple. if he connects on the punch? he wins. if he doesn't? he's dead. if he's grappling? if he's in shape, he can potentially choke the boxer out. if he's not? paq is going to wait until the guy tires himself out, get up, and then stomp on this guy.

so really there's only 2 ways the big guy can win - sneak in that first punch, or he grabs a pool cue. otherwise? this guy is looking at broken bones, a concussion, and just an overall ass-kicking.
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  #46  
Old 01-26-2011, 09:00 AM
pulykamell pulykamell is offline
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Originally Posted by Meatros View Post
Not too long ago a UFC fighter was filmed in a street fight, IIRC. This guy was beating on a girl and the UFC fighter came to the girls aid. It was a few months ago, so my memory might be fuzzy.

There's also the 'story' of Van Damme being laid out by the former hell's angel guy.
It's not this video is it? That's from a few years ago, and it's not a UFC fighter (but another trained martial artist), but it otherwise fits the description.
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  #47  
Old 01-26-2011, 09:06 AM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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Taking a punch to the face or getting unexpectedly hit in the head with a beer bottle are two completely different things, let me assure you.
I know of at least one situation in which a blow with a bottle to the back of the head in a bar resulted in death. Are there that many people out there willing to risk committing homicide?
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  #48  
Old 01-26-2011, 09:17 AM
Mr. Excellent Mr. Excellent is offline
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Aside from the various techniques we think of as boxing (guarding face and body, bobbing and weaving), boxers have developed a particular form of strength. They can put a huge amount of force into a short motion of their arms. One thing that a trained boxer at any level can generally do way better than any bar or street fighter is to really, really hurt someone with a short punch.

I cast my vote with the OP's friend.
The other thing that they can do is *take* a punch. Most people don't really know how to deal with getting hurt - they get scared, they panic, they freeze. For a boxer, serious pain is just an ordinary part of the job. Unless the bar fighter inflicts enough damage, quickly, to literally disable the boxer, the drunken lout will find the boxer just shrugging off his blows.
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  #49  
Old 01-26-2011, 09:18 AM
bengangmo bengangmo is offline
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Interesting question. I think I'm taking the minority opinion here.

My first observation is that boxing has weight classes for a reason, and not many established pros are successful when they move up in class, even though the difference is only five pounds or so.

I'll probably screw this up since I'm going from memory, but I remember back in the 60's there was a light-heavy named Bob Foster, who was knocking everybody out in his class. He really ran out of opponents, so he thought it might be fun to fight the heavyweight champ, Joe Frazier. Frazier was actually small for a heavyweight by today's standards, but he annihilated Foster.

Heavier guys don't just hit harder, they also absorb punishment better. A blow that will knock out a welterweight might just make a heavyweight mad.

Another thing --- how many guys are totally untrained? 50 years ago, a big guy was likely just big from genetics, and may not have known how to fight. But most big guys today spend a lot of time in the gym, and they're not just big, they're strong and fast (it's a myth that weights make you musclebound). And there's very likely a heavy bag where they work out, and while they may not spar or train like a real boxer, they might hit it enough to get good at hitting people. And most guys learn enough from their dad or PE class or wherever to know to keep their hands up and not make big looping swings, like the guys in the movies do when they fight the hero.

Now, obviously, a trained boxer has a big advantage over a regular guy. The question is, how much weight is needed to overcome that advantage?

If we're talking about a lightweight versus a heavyweight, the classes around a lighweight differ by only 6 or 7 pounds, so that's enough to make a big difference among trained fighters. Maybe a guy slightly less talented, but still trained, can be ten pounds heavier and beat the smaller, faster guy. Maybe 20 pounds more, and he can be a lot less talented. It stands to reason that at some point, he can just be a regular guy in good shape, and still beat the boxer.

Maybe he has to weigh 100 pounds more; I don't know. But I find it very difficult to believe that, say, an NFL fullback couldn't beat up a decent lightweight boxer.

Maybe the boxer could outpoint the fullback in the ring, but as somebody else pointed out, it's different in a bar. If the big guy rushes the little guy and traps him against a wall, or gets him on the ground, then speed and technique don't mean too much.

And also as somebody else said, wrestling technique DOES carry over to bar fights, and would probably count for more than boxing skill.
Psst....

You may wanna take a look at the records of Sugar Ray Robinson and Sugar Ray Leonard.....
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  #50  
Old 01-26-2011, 09:40 AM
Gray Ghost Gray Ghost is offline
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Originally Posted by acsenray View Post
I know of at least one situation in which a blow with a bottle to the back of the head in a bar resulted in death. Are there that many people out there willing to risk committing homicide?
You don't work in criminal defense, do you?

(I don't either, but from friends I have that do, it's surprising just how many of their clients are stupid and unwilling to consider the consequences of their actions.)

As to the OP, agree that there have been great points raised in the thread and my money is on the pro boxer in the fight. There was a thread in the Game Room recently about just how much better a professional athlete is at their sport than even a talented, practiced amateur. Can't find the thread at the moment, but I imagine the same effect and examples would carry over to the sport of boxing/MMA.

However, a historical example not yet brought up is the death of Arturo Gatti. Depending on who is telling the story, his wife either strangled him with her purse strap---presumably while he was passed out, he strangled himself with her purse, or whomever left the additional bruises on him also strangled him. Weird case, and we'll probably never hear the full truth of it.

Not sure if it was mentioned, but Mitch Green was also a professional heavyweight boxer, albeit not a very good one, when he and Tyson fought outside the clothing store in NYC. Probably why Green was able to walk away afterwards...

Last edited by Gray Ghost; 01-26-2011 at 09:40 AM..
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