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  #1  
Old 03-25-2011, 04:10 PM
Horatio Hellpop Horatio Hellpop is offline
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"Die Another Day": Why the hate?

I just looked at a Life.com feature about Bond girls, and the writer glibly referred to Die Another Day as "the most dreadful Bond movie ever made." Okay, Life magazine hasn't been a reliable hipness barometer since, I dunno, the invention of color film, but really? "The most dreadful"? I rather enjoyed it; it's the only Bond movie I ever bought on DVD, and if we're going to rank Bond movies in order of dreadfulness, this one has to wait in line behind every Moore*, Dalton and Lazenby entry and at least two by Connery (Diamonds Are Forever and that awful one with Kim Basinger). I may be misremembering this, but I think it has the best Bond scene ever: Brosnan, bearded and with nothing to his name but the filthy blanket wrapped around him, strolls into the finest hotel in Hong Kong and demands (and gets) their finest room. Balls!

Thing is, I've heard this knock before. So Bond fans, sell me on the awfulness of this movie. What's so bad about it that I never noticed before?

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  #2  
Old 03-25-2011, 04:12 PM
PSXer PSXer is offline
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the awful one with Kim Basinger isn't an official Bond film
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:38 PM
Robot Arm Robot Arm is offline
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To me, Die Another Day just takes most of the worst elements of the Bond movies and dials them up to 11. It's a fight, with a genetically-altered villain, and his turncoat ice-queen accomplice, on an airplane, that flies through a death ray, and it's breaking up!!!!!!!!! Jeez guys, tone it down a little. It's like watching two swarms of bees fighting each other; all furious activity and no development or tension.

Plus, give me a freakin' invisible car and even I could save the world.
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  #4  
Old 03-25-2011, 04:51 PM
cmkeller cmkeller is offline
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I think the plot was OK, but Halle Berry was one of the worst Bond Girls I've ever seen (if not the absolute worst). There was negative screen chemistry between her and Brosnan. The blatant double-entendres in their banter sounded forced rather than smooth, as it does in most of the other movies.

The one I don't get the hate for is "The World is Not Enough." A lot of people seem to pick on Denise Richards, who I thought played her role reasonably well, but Oscar-winner Halle Berry was way, way worse, IMHO.
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  #5  
Old 03-25-2011, 05:13 PM
Disposable Hero Disposable Hero is offline
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I wouldn't say it was the worst Bond film ever but it definitely wasn't much good. I think part of the problem is the story actually had potential, the first fifteen minutes are excellent and set things up nicely but then it all falls apart.

Unlike 'Robot Arm' I kind of enjoyed the last fifteen minutes as well even if it was incredibly over the top. I thought the whole genetic alteration thing was interesting as well and it did lead to one well done moment when the Korean general sees his son for the first time after he has transformed himself, "Oh, my son, what have you done..." or similar words.

However a couple of points, Bond fighting the sword-fight instructor (was that Madonna or have I gone insane? Always a distinct possibility...) he loses his temper and starts swinging wildly, that isn't Bond, Bond is icy-cool and in control even when he's seething with anger inside.

Also the 500 mph rocket sled that looked as if it was doing about 10 mph and the invisible car which doesn't work as described (Bonds image would have been projected on the other side) and the car-chase on the ice where the cars can't actually be damaged even by mortar rounds...oh, and when he's driving the car on the ice Bond doesn't engage the handy automatic spiked tyres which he uses to drive up a wall later. Poor show Mr Bond.

Irritating as in my opinion the best Bond is Brosnan, but only in the best Bond movie which is Goldeneye, the fight scene at the end is how Bond fights not flailing around like a five-year old in a temper tantrum.

edited to add I also thought TWINE was a very good Bond film.

"You won't shoot, you'd miss me!"

*bang*

"I never miss..."

Last edited by Disposable Hero; 03-25-2011 at 05:14 PM..
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  #6  
Old 03-25-2011, 05:34 PM
TBG TBG is offline
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I haven't seen every Bond film, or even most of them, but DAD was definitely the worst of the ones I've seen. I only saw it once shortly after it came out on home video so I don't exactly remember specifics of what I hated about it (other than Halle Berry) but I know I thought it was the definite low point of Brosnan's Bond era.
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Old 03-25-2011, 05:41 PM
silenus silenus is offline
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The worst Bond movie is the one with Tanya Roberts. But DAD is right up there.
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  #8  
Old 03-25-2011, 05:48 PM
Peter Morris Peter Morris is offline
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DAD was a very good film for the first half. Bond gets captured and tortured, and doesn't escape, and is suspected by his own side of treason. It goes wrong half way through, and the rest is bad.

The exact moment when it turns from good to bad is the first appearance of the invisible car. That goes far beyond normal suspension of disbelief.

Other things wrong with it include :

- re use of plot elements from other films, under the pretence of being "tributes." A brief showing of Bond's old jetpack is fine. A long sequence where he is strapped to a table with a laser beam coming to cut him in half is not. Many other parts of the plot are stolen from older films.

- The guy with diamonds in his face, really they couldn't remove them?

- Mr Kil, worst henchman ever, who doesn't get any bodycount before he dies.

- 'Yo mama' worst line in any Bond film.

- The fencing match goes on far too long and becomes tedious after a while.

- The whole idea of a supposedly dead military officer suddenly reappearing in a new identity, with immense wealth, is almost as hard to swallow as the invisible car.


Is that enough reasons?
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  #9  
Old 03-25-2011, 05:54 PM
CalMeacham CalMeacham is offline
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1.) No way is Die Another Day anywhere near as bad as Moonraker. Jaws the human Coyote (from Road Runner cartoons)? Jaws' Pippi Longstocking love interest? The totally unsubtle embedded advertising? The Star Wars-ripoff ending? (Actually, the whole film was a Star Wars-inspired fantasy. The next Bond film was to have been "For Your Eyes Only", as the credits at the end of "The Spy Who Loved Me" told us.)God, no contest.

2.) And the Spy Who Loved Me was almost as bad (both of them written by the ham-handed Christopher Wood)

3.) DAD really did try to tie in features from every film. A lot of people got turned off by this.

4.) a lot of folks were turned off by Halle Berry, but I have to admit I liked her.
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  #10  
Old 03-25-2011, 06:22 PM
fusoya fusoya is offline
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Is that the one that Halle Barry hijacked? There ya go.

Pierce Brosman made exactly one good James Bond film. TWINE was even worse than Die Another Day, but not by much.
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  #11  
Old 03-25-2011, 06:38 PM
Skald the Rhymer Skald the Rhymer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disposable Hero View Post

However a couple of points, Bond fighting the sword-fight instructor (was that Madonna or have I gone insane? Always a distinct possibility...) he loses his temper and starts swinging wildly, that isn't Bond, Bond is icy-cool and in control even when he's seething with anger inside.
I should stay out of this thread, as I have seen only two and a half Bond movies (Die Another Day, Quantum of Solace, and random bits of Goldfinger). But nobody ever said I was wise. Anywho, I didn't see Bond as actually losing his temper in that scene. He was pretending to lose his temper to goad the other guy into doing so.
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:47 PM
Tom Scud Tom Scud is offline
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Originally Posted by Disposable Hero View Post
However a couple of points, Bond fighting the sword-fight instructor (was that Madonna?
Yes.

As for me, I kinda liked DAD for the thorough over-the-top silliness, but I understand people's mileage varying.
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  #13  
Old 03-25-2011, 06:54 PM
Alessan Alessan is online now
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Originally Posted by Peter Morris View Post
DAD was a very good film for the first half. Bond gets captured and tortured, and doesn't escape, and is suspected by his own side of treason. It goes wrong half way through, and the rest is bad.

The exact moment when it turns from good to bad is the first appearance of the invisible car. That goes far beyond normal suspension of disbelief.
Almost word-per-word what I came here to say. Not just his imprisonment, but his scenes in Cuba, with him going about armed with just a revolver and a classic convertable, were as good as Bond gets. After that it turned into a cartoon.

Worse moment? The "parasailing".
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  #14  
Old 03-25-2011, 07:24 PM
Greg Charles Greg Charles is offline
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I'm having a hard time remembering which was DAD and which was TWINE, but they were both bad.

Dalton generates a lot of hatred, but I consider his two Bond films to be fairly entertaining.

Lazenby's one chance was actually pretty good, and come on ... it had Diana Rigg in it. How bad could it be? On the other hand, it introduced the phrase "The World is Not Enough", so it's got that working against it.

"Diamonds Are Forever" was Connery's worst, but at least it was still Connery (or technically was Connery again). They were starting to experiment with silliness by then, which has never worked well in a Bond film, and yet is something the series keeps returning to. Bastards.

Moore's worst were "Live and Let Die" and "The Man With Golden Gun". Maybe I'd add "View to a Kill" to that list. None of the others were in that class.

Last edited by Greg Charles; 03-25-2011 at 07:25 PM..
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  #15  
Old 03-25-2011, 07:27 PM
Sir Not Appearing on This Site Sir Not Appearing on This Site is offline
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The beginning of the movie is very good, the whole POW, can't trust the broken spy angle. Then when it gets to Cuba, it all starts to go down hill. Replacing people's DNA to make them look like other people? The white English dude, is the same Korean dude that "died" at the beginning? Needless cameo by Madonna. Surfing on Glacial wave, with obvious CGI.

That may be the most disappointing thing in the movie to me, it was the first time they used CGI for the effects that looked totally fake. Bond films always prided themselves on using practical effects, and here they are using crappy CGI.

Is it the worst Bond film? No. Is it the best? Not even close. For me, it ranks just above the bottom 2, You Only Live Twice and Moonraker.
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Old 03-25-2011, 07:47 PM
Peter Morris Peter Morris is offline
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Surfing on Glacial wave, with obvious CGI.

That may be the most disappointing thing in the movie to me, it was the first time they used CGI for the effects that looked totally fake. Bond films always prided themselves on using practical effects, and here they are using crappy CGI.
I can forgive the use of CGI. It's a definite improvement over the effect we used to get. Less fake looking than certain rear view projection shots, anyway.
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Old 03-25-2011, 08:26 PM
CalMeacham CalMeacham is offline
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Moore's worst were "Live and Let Die" and "The Man With Golden Gun". Maybe I'd add "View to a Kill" to that list. None of the others were in that class.
I seriously beg to differ. Do you really think Live and let Die is worse than Moonraker? REALLY?



Quote:
On the other hand, it introduced the phrase "The World is Not Enough", so it's got that working against it.

Actually, Ian Fleming's novel introduced the Bond Family Motto. But this was the film it first appeared in.
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  #18  
Old 03-25-2011, 08:37 PM
Justin_Bailey Justin_Bailey is offline
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I haven't seen every Bond film, or even most of them, but DAD was definitely the worst of the ones I've seen. I only saw it once shortly after it came out on home video so I don't exactly remember specifics of what I hated about it (other than Halle Berry) but I know I thought it was the definite low point of Brosnan's Bond era.
As someone who has seen them all, I definitely don't understand the hate for DAD. The tributes were amusing and it was a thousand times better than almost all of Roger Moore's output and way, way better than On Her Majesty's Secret Service.
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Old 03-25-2011, 08:57 PM
joebuck20 joebuck20 is offline
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I can forgive the use of CGI. It's a definite improvement over the effect we used to get. Less fake looking than certain rear view projection shots, anyway.
Not to mention a disco version of John Barry's classic Bond theme. (shudder)
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Old 03-26-2011, 12:14 AM
gravitycrash gravitycrash is offline
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The best thing about DAD was Rosamund Pike, yowza. Also the only reason to watch Doom the movie. YMMV.
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  #21  
Old 03-26-2011, 12:57 AM
enalzi enalzi is offline
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Is that the one that Halle Barry hijacked? There ya go.

Pierce Brosman made exactly one good James Bond film. TWINE was even worse than Die Another Day, but not by much.
Tomorrow Never Dies was pretty good. It's sandwiched between one great movie and two crappy ones, so people seem to forget it even existed.

Last edited by enalzi; 03-26-2011 at 12:57 AM..
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  #22  
Old 03-26-2011, 02:13 AM
Promethea Promethea is offline
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Another Die Another Day hater checking in. I agree with Cal Meacham in thinking that Moonraker is the very worst Bond film but somehow I hate Die another Day more because it had the potential to be so awesome and so totally screwed it up.

I thought (like others here) that the beginning was pretty awesome - the stuff with Bond being tortured between the opening credits of the film worked really well and promised a lot. Like, we were going to explore some of the space between the total fantasy world spy Bond is and what a more realistic MI6 agent might be. Or at least dwell on the difference a bit. I was pretty excited by this possibility because I'm a real fan of the series but it has a colossal weakness - there's a lot of very specific elements that make a Bond film:

  • Beautiful women, at least one treacherous
  • Banter with Moneypenny
  • Gorgeous locations
  • Ridiculous but cool weaponry from Q
  • Stupid puns (Stephen Merchant and Ricky Gervais once observed that if Bond worked in your office, everyone would hate him for this alone)
  • Violent fight scenes
  • Amazing stunt work
  • Hugely wealthy supervillain with implausible plan for world domination
  • Bond himself: suave, cynical, ruthless and emotionally detached.

If you deviate more than slightly from the above, it stops feeling like a Bond film at all but if you keep to the template, you're always seeing the same film. The villain thing is the biggest problem, I think. It must be a struggle to keep coming up with someone who fits the bill. Anyway, my point is that I think in the modern era, the number one problem the Bond producers have is 'how can we avoid serving up stuff the fan has already seen?' And instead of trying to avoid this, with Die Another Day, they tried to turn the bug into a big feature. Massive error. As Peter Morris said, I think little background touches (like Rosa Klebb's spiky shoe) would have been charming. Extended plot devices were a big mistake because Bond films already cannibalise from themselves so heavily. The 'killer satellite' for example was borrowed from Goldeneye which in turn was borrowed from Dimaonds are Forever. It felt too much like the film was eating itself.

Yes, Halle Berry was awful.

The ending felt like it had drifted out of all reality. The Americans have gone to Defcon 2 over the situation in North Korea but there's no real sense of the film organically raising the stakes to such levels - it all feels so arbitrary and absurd. The direction really fell apart over the last 20 minutes or so with just endless frenetic fighting.

The revelation about Toby Stephen's character was ridiculous. Bond lives in a fantastical world, but he doesn't live in a cartoon - that couldn't happen. It couldn't nearly happen. Especially annoying as I thought Toby Stephens was otherwise a pretty cool villain and he did a good acting job but he couldn't save the material.

I should have known from the theme song. The Madonna theme song is bloody awful. And though there are exceptions to the rule, in general shit Bond theme song = shit film.
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  #23  
Old 03-26-2011, 02:50 AM
Argent Towers Argent Towers is offline
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I'd rather watch Die Another Day twice than Quantum of Solace once. What a shitpile. And it also fails every single one of the criteria above.

Oh, but it was GRITTY and DARK and REALISTIC.

Sorry, not for me.
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Old 03-26-2011, 07:42 AM
Uncle Jocko Uncle Jocko is offline
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I thought Die Another Day was a lot of fun. Sure, Madonna can't act her way out of a paper bag. Yeah, I'll give you Halle Berry and Pierce Brosnan had the chemistry of Margaret and Dennis the Menace. Absolutely, the invisible car was a huuuuuuuge (product placement) stretch. But it was fun, darnit!

While I also enjoyed parts of Live and Let Die, there wasn't any part of Die Another Day that matched the hokiness of the Louisiana sheriff boat-chase scenes (a character they were compelled to bring back for The Man With the Golden Gun, I think it was). And not even Christopher Walken could save the mess that was A View To A Kill.

Bond movies vary wildly, in my opinion. As do opinions about them. I kinda liked the over-the-topness of, say, Diamonds Are Forever (Jimmy Dean, for cryin' out loud!), and I also enjoyed the more realistic grittiness of Casino Royale.

Plus, as mentioned above ... Die Another Day had Rosamund Pike, and she was babe-a-licious!!!
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Old 03-26-2011, 08:16 AM
Capitaine Zombie Capitaine Zombie is offline
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Originally Posted by Argent Towers View Post
I'd rather watch Die Another Day twice than Quantum of Solace once. What a shitpile. And it also fails every single one of the criteria above.

Oh, but it was GRITTY and DARK and REALISTIC.

Sorry, not for me.
It didnt fail because of that, it failed because its director aint worth shit, plain and simple. QoS was bad on its own sake, but had, as well, to fuck up royally the whole "Spectre" thing in seconds. Wherehas CR distilled its menace way better than any other Bond movie ever made previously.
Really regrettable that Martin Campbell didnt sign for a run of several Bond movies, he's as precious to the franchise that Craig is.
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Old 03-26-2011, 08:26 AM
Ají de Gallina Ají de Gallina is offline
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I think the plot was OK, but Halle Berry was one of the worst Bond Girls I've ever seen (if not the absolute worst). There was negative screen chemistry between her and Brosnan. The blatant double-entendres in their banter sounded forced rather than smooth, as it does in most of the other movies.

The one I don't get the hate for is "The World is Not Enough." A lot of people seem to pick on Denise Richards, who I thought played her role reasonably well, but Oscar-winner Halle Berry was way, way worse, IMHO.
If Halle Berry is in a movie, it is good. That's the law.
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Old 03-26-2011, 09:07 AM
hogarth hogarth is offline
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The one I don't get the hate for is "The World is Not Enough." A lot of people seem to pick on Denise Richards, who I thought played her role reasonably well, but Oscar-winner Halle Berry was way, way worse, IMHO.
"The World Is Not Enough" and "Licence to Kill" are the two James Bond movies that I have barely any recollection what they're about (other than there's a nuclear bomb in the former and a drug dealer in the latter). Actually, I'm not too clear on "The Living Daylights", either -- someone was defecting, I think.

I don't mind if a James Bond movie is silly, but the one thing it shouldn't be is unmemorable.

Last edited by hogarth; 03-26-2011 at 09:09 AM..
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Old 03-26-2011, 10:32 AM
Capitaine Zombie Capitaine Zombie is offline
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Actually, I'm not too clear on "The Living Daylights", either -- someone was defecating, I think.
The writer maybe?

Last edited by Capitaine Zombie; 03-26-2011 at 10:33 AM..
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  #29  
Old 03-26-2011, 11:37 AM
The Batman The Batman is offline
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Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina
If Halle Berry is in a movie, it is good. That's the law.
Like in Catwoman?
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  #30  
Old 03-26-2011, 11:42 AM
enalzi enalzi is offline
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If Halle Berry is in a movie, it is good. That's the law.
Catwoman? Swordfish?
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  #31  
Old 03-26-2011, 02:59 PM
Disposable Hero Disposable Hero is offline
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Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer View Post
I should stay out of this thread, as I have seen only two and a half Bond movies (Die Another Day, Quantum of Solace, and random bits of Goldfinger). But nobody ever said I was wise. Anywho, I didn't see Bond as actually losing his temper in that scene. He was pretending to lose his temper to goad the other guy into doing so.
Possible, I can't recall the scene well enough to be sure, but I remember really disliking it at the time.
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Old 03-26-2011, 04:40 PM
Sakuma Drops Sakuma Drops is offline
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"The World Is Not Enough" and "Licence to Kill" are the two James Bond movies that I have barely any recollection what they're about (other than there's a nuclear bomb in the former and a drug dealer in the latter). Actually, I'm not too clear on "The Living Daylights", either -- someone was defecting, I think.

I don't mind if a James Bond movie is silly, but the one thing it shouldn't be is unmemorable.
I re-watched parts of The World Is Not Enough on TV a couple of weeks ago. I still don't remember what it's about

Die Another Day
was hammy and ridiculous (and not in any particularly good ways), but at least it wasn't boring.
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  #33  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:53 PM
Ají de Gallina Ají de Gallina is offline
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Like in Catwoman?
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Originally Posted by enalzi View Post
Catwoman? Swordfish?
Even in those cinematical atrocities the law still works....Halle can do no wrong.
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