Black Parents Demand that Catholic School Beat Their Kids?

[astorian]

This is an odd story that I heard about mainly because the person at the heart of the controversy was the bishop here in Austin not long ago.

Gregory Aymond, now bishop of New Orleans, has abolished the use of corporal punishment in Catholic schools under his authority.

Believe it or not, the bishop is being loudly and enthusiastically opposed by thousands of African American families!

http://www.nola.com/education/index....ool_paddl.html

What do we make of this? That many families WANT their kids to get a good butt whipping from time to time, just to keep them in line? That many think it's the only way to instill the discipline they think their kids need?

[Shagnasty]

You shouldn't use 'beat' as a synonym for corporal punishment in schools. It is a dishonest comparison with an agenda and isn't true in general. I grew up in Louisiana and we had corporal punishment in public schools that I was on the receiving end of more than a few times. There was nothing abusive about it and it didn't even hurt that long or that much. It was a preferred form of punishment among students because it was administered quickly when you did certain categories of things wrong like fighting and you then went on with your business.

I assume your argument is just against corporal punishment in schools in general and nothing in particular about this case. Parents, both white and black, could fill out a form to prevent their child from receiving corporal punishment in the area I grew up in but never did. That would be dumb for several reasons.

What issues do you have with this other than black kids in New Orleans might come into contact with something you see as violence?

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by Shagnasty

You shouldn't use 'beat' as a synonym for corporal punishment in schools.

How about hit?
Strike?
Attack?
Assault?
Battery?
Thrash?

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

How about hit?
Strike?
Attack?
Assault?
Battery?
Thrash?

Strike sounds okay. The others have negative connotations that aren't appropriate in terms of most corporal punishment IMHO. Corporal punishment was the most attractive option available when the others were detention, suspension, writing lines, additional work, or something like running additional laps in gym. I wish corporal punishment was still available for me to pick as an option today for myself. I would much rather take a fast paddling than listen to a boss drone on about something negative for example. I don't know how people imagine corporal punishment works but we aren't talking slave lashings here. In practice, it is just 'pop', mild sting, blush. The end.

[Czarcasm]

Are you claiming that your experience with corporal punishment is typical of most peoples? Cite?

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

Are you claiming that your experience with corporal punishment is typical of most peoples? Cite?

I don't know about everywhere in the world but yes, that is the way it was done in Louisiana where this article is from. Corporal punishment wasn't rare and it was usually done in front of other teachers and or students so everyone got to see it dozens or hundreds of times going through public schools. People from other schools reported the same thing. I don't know what to cite. That is just the way it works there.

[Anaamika]

That is so much bullshit it is insane. Corporal punishment was humiliating in my school and it was by far the worst punishment. I'd rather write a thousand lines out. Give me control over my own body, please.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Shagnasty

Strike sounds okay. The others have negative connotations that aren't appropriate in terms of most corporal punishment IMHO.

So if the kid or their parent picks up a chair and pounds the teacher who does such a thing until they stop squirming, I suppose we shouldn't call that "beating' either. It's...extreme massage.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by astorian

What do we make of this? That many families WANT their kids to get a good butt whipping from time to time, just to keep them in line?

Is this that incomprehensible? A lot of people are idiots and think their children are their property. That's how a significant number of people think, although it's not as many as it once was since corporal punishment in schools is on the wane. I'm wondering why it matters that the parents in this story are black.

[Czarcasm]

My school-long wooden paddle with holes drilled, pants down, in the principal's office. Although there was no policy per se, he never seemed to call the girls in for punishment.

[Captain Amazing]

I don't know that this is specifically an odd story. Spanking is more common in the south than the north, and more common among blacks than whites. So it doesn't really surprise me that there are a bunch of black parents in New Orleans upset that their school has gotten rid of corporal punishment.

[alphaboi867]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

My school-long wooden paddle with holes drilled, pants down, in the principal's office. Although there was no policy per se, he never seemed to call the girls in for punishment.

The was definately a double-standard when my mother & uncles were in school. Boys could receive CP from either a male or female teacher, often in front of other students. Only female teachers could administer CP to a girl, and she had to be taken away from other students or male staff. Also the paddle wasn't used on girls, only hands or a ruler. In any even girls were seldom hit. This was in elementary school, by high school girls were completely exempt from CP, but boys were subject to the same policy as in grade school (though they were usually sent to the prinicpal's office instead of being paddled in class). Both sexes were paddled fully clothed (though apparently not if you were a boy who got in trouble during gym ).

[Skammer]

Corporal punishment is still used in my state, although I think it's a district-by-district decision and parents have to provide assent. I know it was used at the high school my wife taught at; I'll have to ask her if it was used on the girls also.

[Khristy]

Stories like this make me ill. In a time when we are all up in arms over kids bullying other kids, it's still ok for adults to assault them like they are property, not people.
And yes, it is assault... try doing it to another adult and see how fast your ass winds up in jail.
When I was in high school, one day another teacher walked into the class and told one of the boys to come up to the front of the class. I don't know the reason behind why he did this, but he made the boy do push ups while the teacher stood on his back, FFS! Our class teacher didn't say a damn thing and just stood there watching. In fact no one said a word, guess it was just assumed that all students are the property of the school/teachers.
It's as if "minors" have no civil or constitutional rights what so ever in this country.
They are treated as incompetent, immature babies... til they break the law and magically become adults!
This is one reason I refuse to have kids... I don't want society treating my children like nothing more than cattle.
And yes, I know the story was about parents wanting this, but that still doesn't make it right.

[TruCelt]

I'm appalled to hear that it wasn't abolished decades ago, and throughout the USA. It's backward and ignorant and educators of all people should long since have read the evidence and stopped using barbaric methods.

Yes, there are people who received it and still grew up healthy. Just because it doesn't cause evey recipient to become a serial killer does not support it's use.

God help anyone who raises a hand to Celtling.

[Captain Amazing]

If we're expressing personal opinions, I also don't think it should be done in schools. I don't have a problem with parents spanking their kids, though. But all that being said, the story set out in the OP doesn't really surprise me.

[Chronos]

Quoth Shagnasty:

It was a preferred form of punishment among students because it was administered quickly when you did certain categories of things wrong like fighting and you then went on with your business.

Isn't this an argument against corporal punishment? Surely, if the students have a greater dislike of the stern talking-to or whatever, that would make that a greater deterrent to bad behavior?

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

That is so much bullshit it is insane. Corporal punishment was humiliating in my school and it was by far the worst punishment. I'd rather write a thousand lines out. Give me control over my own body, please.

And this is why it was rarely used but so effective.

I went to a Catholic school. We didn't have discipline problems. Sister Mary Wooden Ruler saw to that. The parents who are protesting know it works and want their kids to get the same no-nonsense education they got.

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Quoth Shagnasty:Isn't this an argument against corporal punishment? Surely, if the students have a greater dislike of the stern talking-to or whatever, that would make that a greater deterrent to bad behavior?

Maybe but people usually present it as being cruel and my point was that the people that actually had it done to them often prefer it. It does have the advantage of being immediate after you did something rather than being long and drawn out like detention so cause and effect were always perfectly clear.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Magiver

And this is why it was rarely used but so effective.

I went to a Catholic school. We didn't have discipline problems. Sister Mary Wooden Ruler saw to that.

And when those children went out and assaulted those who couldn't fight back, just like their teachers were doing to them, that was just fine right? If they go out and beat some gay guy to death for being "sinful" that's a small price to pay to shut them up when they were in school. And yes, that is going to be the kind of long term effect you can expect; brutality spawns brutality.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by Magiver

And this is why it was rarely used but so effective.

I went to a Catholic school. We didn't have discipline problems. Sister Mary Wooden Ruler saw to that. The parents who are protesting know it works and want their kids to get the same no-nonsense education they got.

No, it was stupid and used improperly. I was a straight A student except in one thing - handwriting. I got Ds in handwriting regularly. So I was supposed to take one of my D papers home for my mother to sign it, and forgot for three days running. I got paddled in front of the entire class for this oh so horrible infraction.

I still rankle at the unjustness of it. That didn't teach me to respect the teacher or that I should listen. It just taught me that punishment is cruel and arbitrary and no matter how good you do you are still fucked if the teacher feels like it.

How anybody can think that beating a child is appropriate is unfathomable. There are ways to humiliate and punish without beating. And I am entirely of the opinion that we have gone too far the other way, that we are much too kind to our children now, but I would never advocate going back to beating them. Think about it. You are subject to the whims of your teacher. That's great if it's a great teacher. What happens when it's a psycho bitch that should have retired years and years ago.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

And when those children went out and assaulted those who couldn't fight back, just like their teachers were doing to them, that was just fine right? If they go out and beat some gay guy to death for being "sinful" that's a small price to pay to shut them up when they were in school. And yes, that is going to be the kind of long term effect you can expect; brutality spawns brutality.

You have no clue what you're talking about. None. You're just pulling mental straw men out of your ass for the sake of argument.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Magiver

You have no clue what you're talking about. None. You're just pulling mental straw men out of your ass for the sake of argument.

No. I'm just refusing to romanticize beating children, or the effects of doing so. Beating a gay guy for being sinful, beating your wife for not being submissive enough, torturing a prisoner because he won't confess to what you think he did; that's just the same principle as "corporal punishment" taken into adulthood.

[Guinastasia]

If these parents are so set on corporal punishment for misbehavior, let them wait until the kid gets home and THEN use it. Don't rely on the teachers to teachers to do it.


(BTW, I also went to Catholic school, and I think I got spanked ONCE. A quick smack on the butt in first grade when me and two of my friends got bored during lunch, so we went to the back of the cafeteria and started harassing the kids in band practice. Other than that, it was extra homework, missing recess, etc.)

[PSXer]

Kids these days don't know how to behave because they don't get spanked when they are bad.

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

So if the kid or their parent picks up a chair and pounds the teacher who does such a thing until they stop squirming, I suppose we shouldn't call that "beating' either. It's...extreme massage.

Very poor comparison. Corporal punishment is lawful in some places, attacking people with chairs is not.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by PSXer

Kids these days don't know how to behave because they don't get spanked when they are bad.

Have any evidence to back that up, sparky?

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

How anybody can think that beating a child is appropriate is unfathomable.

Nobody does. A spanking is not a beating. I don’t know how you managed to “forget” to bring your paper home 3 times but you should have been doing lines on day 1.

Originally Posted by Anaamika

There are ways to humiliate and punish without beating. And I am entirely of the opinion that we have gone too far the other way, that we are much too kind to our children now, but I would never advocate going back to beating them. Think about it. You are subject to the whims of your teacher. That's great if it's a great teacher. What happens when it's a psycho bitch that should have retired years and years ago.

You shot down your own argument with this. First you say the humiliation is worse than doing lines and then you go on to say there are other ways to humiliate and punish. I don't know if you went to a Catholic School but they were pretty reserved about spanking when I went. The meanest bitchiest teacher in my school never spanked anybody. It was the last line of disciplinary defense to be used as such.

[New Deal Democrat]

Black parents probably have a better idea of what their children need than do white liberals.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

Black parents probably have a better idea of what their children need than do white liberals.

I don't think race is relevant to parenting. If beating your children is bad, then it's bad.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

No. I'm just refusing to romanticize beating children, or the effects of doing so. Beating a gay guy for being sinful, beating your wife for not being submissive enough, torturing a prisoner because he won't confess to what you think he did; that's just the same principle as "corporal punishment" taken into adulthood.

I got smacked by a nun when I was in the 5th grade. Right across the face. It was for insulting a kid for being effeminate. She literally slapped the stupid out of me while reading me the riot act in front of everybody. You are clueless about the Catholic Church. Clueless.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by Magiver

I got smacked by a nun when I was in the 5th grade. Right across the face. It was for insulting a kid for being effeminate. She literally slapped the stupid out of me while reading me the riot act in front of everybody. You are clueless about the Catholic Church. Clueless.

I feel sorry for the "lesson" you apparently learned from that cruel bitch.

[DirkGntly]

Also, I think comparing the regimented corporal punishment in my school to a "beating" is generally an unfair comparison.
In my private school growing up, corporal punishment was indeed used. It was mostly reserved for things like cheating on a test. It was always in the principal's office, in private, administered by the principal and witnessed by another teacher. If a girl was ever administered CP, I was unaware, but in those instances two female teachers would have been involved -- one to administer, the other to witness. It was not a lashing out in anger, was done quietly, and never more than two "licks" with the paddle. For the record, my folks administered CP at home in a similar fashion: calmly, with discussion before and after, and very clear rules as to when and why CP would be administered. Hardly a "beating."

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Magiver

I got smacked by a nun when I was in the 5th grade. Right across the face. It was for insulting a kid for being effeminate. She literally slapped the stupid out of me while reading me the riot act in front of everybody.

She was a bully who hit a child because she knew he wouldn't hit back. That's the real lesson she was teaching the children she struck. Brutalize those who can't fight back.

Originally Posted by Magiver

You are clueless about the Catholic Church. Clueless.

My cluelessness or lack thereof is irrelevant, since Catholicism isn't the point of the thread. Hitting children is.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I don't think race is relevant to parenting. If beating your children is bad, then it's bad.

It may be relevant if it's an outreach program. Traditionally black communities are Protestant. If this parish has a high percentage of black children in the school they may not be Catholic but part of a program to improve the educational standards in the community. The parents want the discipline the school traditionally provided.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

She was a bully who hit a child because she knew he wouldn't hit back. That's the real lesson she was teaching the children she struck. Brutalize those who can't fight back.

There is nothing stopping a child from striking a teacher. She was a little bitty thing and I could have flattened her easily. She did the right thing and to this day I'm thankful she did.

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

My cluelessness or lack thereof is irrelevant, since Catholicism isn't the point of the thread. Hitting children is.

It's about a Catholic school.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Magiver

It may be relevant if it's an outreach program.

New Deal Democrat's theory was that white people don't have a clue and only black parents understand how to raise black children. I recognize there are cultural issues and things like that here, but let's not give support to nonsense.

[Khristy]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

Black parents probably have a better idea of what their children need than do white liberals.

Yea, they need to be taught that when someone doesn't do as they are told, it's time to knock them upside the head.

Lessons learned as a child carry over to adulthood very often.

Just ask Chris Brown, he'll tell you ya need to keep your pimp hand strong in case your bitch steps outta line.

[PoorYorick]

It's looks like the OP has spiraled into a debate about the pro's and con's of corporal punishment. I'm kind of torn on the issue. OK, I'll play with my experience in two scenarios.

Case 1: Corporal punishment was legal in my junior high in Oklahoma City, at least in the early '70's, and was referred to as "getting licks" or "getting paddled." It consisted of the paddlee bending over and placing his (almost always a male) hands on his knees, and the paddler striking the paddlee on the butt with a wooden paddle, usually one to three times. In my experience, the pain was sharp but didn't last more than a minute or two. I've been the recipient of a beating, and this wasn't a beating. Maybe it's how we're defining the word. To me, a beating implies an intent to injure. Somebody whaling on you in a parking lot while you're trying to curl into a fetal position is a beating.

My Social Studies class consisted of the 7th grade football team. We were pretty rowdy, to say the least, and our coach was not someone to suffer foolishness. Paddling was administered frequently here, and was considered something of a right of passage. As far as I can tell, there was no physical or emotional harm, and, yes, I'd much prefer getting three licks to spending after school in detention for a day. My guess, this is something like Shagnasty was referring to.

Case 2: I was a mental health worker at a state home for psychologically disturbed children, the worst of the worst cases. Not only was striking a child not allowed, you would be arrested for doing so, and for good reason. Most of the children (4 - 18 in age) were here because of the traumatic effects of physical and/or sexual abuse. We're talking real beatings here. What this taught me was that no matter the provocation, there was always another option besides corporal punishment. The result of time-outs or flat out ignoring, for instance, were not as dramatic as spanking a child, and it often tool a long time to see any effect, but the end result was usually the same that paddling advocates strive for: Reinforce positive behavior, don't reinforce negative behavior.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by Magiver

Nobody does. A spanking is not a beating. I don’t know how you managed to “forget” to bring your paper home 3 times but you should have been doing lines on day 1.

Are you doubting me? Is that what you mean by your little scare quotes? Do tell me what I learned from being paddled. On second thought, don't. Beat your own kids if you want, but the teachers should not be allowed to. Anyway I am done with this argument. Arguing on the Internet never accomplishes anything.

[Beware of Doug]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

No. I'm just refusing to romanticize beating children, or the effects of doing so. Beating a gay guy for being sinful, beating your wife for not being submissive enough, torturing a prisoner because he won't confess to what you think he did; that's just the same principle as "corporal punishment" taken into adulthood.

What Magiver did is not romanticizing, really. More refusing to question the practice. "Worked for my generation, I turned out fine, that settles it."

It's understandable. Corporal punishment is most often defended by people with an unquestioning attitude toward established authority.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by Beware of Doug

What Magiver did is not romanticizing, really. More refusing to question the practice. "Worked for my generation, I turned out fine, that settles it."

It's understandable. Corporal punishment is most often defended by people with an unquestioning attitude toward established authority.

He now believes that slapping children in the face in front of other children is proper discipline. Yep, he turned out just fine.

[Beware of Doug]

Some people believe in self-discipline as a principle to be learned; others believe in outer discipline as a force to be submitted to. There are stops along the continuum as well.

[G-SE]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Are you doubting me? Is that what you mean by your little scare quotes? Do tell me what I learned from being paddled. On second thought, don't. Beat your own kids if you want, but the teachers should not be allowed to. Anyway I am done with this argument. Arguing on the Internet never accomplishes anything.

Well, since you only have this one story as an example, my guess is that you never "forgot" to get your paper signed again, and you weren't ever punished again like that. Seems to me lesson learned.

[Beware of Doug]

Originally Posted by G-SE

Well, since you only have this one story as an example, my guess is that you never "forgot" to get your paper signed again, and you weren't ever punished again like that. Seems to me lesson learned.

This (I dunno Ana, maybe you know already) is an example of the philosophy called consequentialism. "The end justifies the means" is its common expression. Ie, all that matters is achieving the desired outcome. Any undesired outcomes - especially anything intangible, like emotional trauma, that anyone might conceivably lie about - are to be accepted as the price of the ticket.

Another ever-popular philosophy among authoritarians, appealing to their belief that people are best regarded as means to ends.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by G-SE

Well, since you only have this one story as an example, my guess is that you never "forgot" to get your paper signed again, and you weren't ever punished again like that. Seems to me lesson learned.

Sounds to me like she never had a problem BEFORE that either, which makes this post an example of absurd post hoc reasoning at best.

[G-SE]

Originally Posted by Beware of Doug

This (I dunno Ana, maybe you know already) is an example of the philosophy called consequentialism. "The end justifies the means" is its common expression. Ie, all that matters is achieving the desired outcome. Any undesired outcomes - especially anything intangible, like emotional trauma, that anyone might conceivably lie about - are to be accepted as the price of the ticket.

Another ever-popular philosophy among authoritarians, appealing to their belief that people are best regarded as means to ends.

No, not really, and please don't put word in my mouth. I never said that it was justified, just that it appears to have had the desired outcome, with regards to her behavior. (Which she claimed it didn't)

[G-SE]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Sounds to me like she never had a problem BEFORE that either, which makes this post an example of absurd post hoc reasoning at best.

Seriously? Then how else would you determine the effectiveness of a punishment, if not by taking repeated offenses into consideration?

[Peremensoe]

I've heard white people, too, say they wanted to send their kids to Catholic school for the discipline--by which they didn't mean only corporal punishment, but that was certainly part of it.

Originally Posted by astorian

What do we make of this? That many families WANT their kids to get a good butt whipping from time to time, just to keep them in line? That many think it's the only way to instill the discipline they think their kids need?

Absolutely. And this thinking is certainly not limited to Catholics of whatever color. I personally hear it more from Baptists, Presbyterians, and diffident agnostics.

I've heard grown men reminisce with fondness and admiration about being beaten--I think the word is appropriate in this specific case--with their fathers' belts. "Straightened me out, I tell you what!"

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by Beware of Doug

Another ever-popular philosophy among authoritarians, appealing to their belief that people are best regarded as means to ends.

Consequentialism is fairly popular among a lot of people. I don't think it's an authoritarian/non authoritarian split, because there are a lot of authoritarians who are fond of deontologicalism, too.

And for that matter, some of the people arguing against corporal punishment in this thread are doing it for consequentialist reasons and others for deontological reasons.