I am 100% opposed to spanking. It is wrong to hit a child, regardless of the offense. Causing physical pain to a child is immoral. Taking away television, books, movies, or other activities is fine. Hitting, or removing meals, is wrong.
However, I do not have children, although I work with them. Does anyone really believe that you can love your child and yet cause them to endure physical pain?
You just drawing arbitrary lines all over the place. It is like you created this little universe with its own rules in your head. It doesn’t have any real validity except how it maps to the real world where each claim needs to be judges against its effectiveness and cost.
I have little objection to corporal punishment. You say it is “immoral”. I say “Uh Uh, It is moral and more moral”. I think it is clear that I have just won this battle because I stated my very subjective belief twice instead of once.
I don’t believe in beating but then again, I don’t believe in emotional abuse either which can be just as bad or worse. Let’s just go ahead and rule out beating or corporal punishment because it is a strawman and nobody is going to be for it here.
I have a three year old daughter. She has a very curious and defiant personality and has a tendency to leap right into things. I sometimes swat her on the behind when she goes to do something like drag a burning log out of the fireplace or run into a busy street.
The benefit this has is that it is
a) immediate. That is an important part of behavior modification especially with the very young
b) gets her attention right away. That is for her immediate benefit as well as mine.
If you don’t see the benefit in that, then there isn’t much use debating. I believe in corporal punishment in some other situations too. I went to a public school in Louisiana that had corporal punishment all the from kindergarten through 12 grade. I get paddled about 5 times all in the later years. We actually had a choice. You could usually choose 3 days of detention, 3 days suspension, or 3 licks with the paddle. No guy ever took any option other than the paddling. Is was done and over quickly, it got the point across, and it never really hurt that badly. I fail to see how something that almost everyone picks can be considered cruel and inhuman.
Is this argument some kind of “the body is a sacred temple”. If so, what do you base that on? I would prefer that my mind be left alone and I have had people in authority screw with that hard because their options were limited.
That should say:
I don’t believe in beating but then again, I don’t believe in emotional abuse either which can be just as bad or worse. Let’s just go ahead and rule out beating or any other truly abusive punishment because it is a strawman and nobody is going to be for it here.
I am not sure what happened to my typing.
I believe that there is a difference between punishing a child, by taking away a favorite game as opposed to actual inflicting violence upon him/her.
I could tell a child they can’t play their favorite game because they did something that was very wrong and it hurt other people.
However, I can not physically strike a child to inflict punishment. A child without X box can grow up to respect his parents. I don’t believe the same can apply to physical punishment. Sure, Daddy might be bigger and stronger. That does not mean that Dad should strike the child.
It is immoral to hit children. Just as it would be immoral for me to hit another Doper, it is wrong to spank children.
I would support you in telling your daughter, “NO!” I can not support you if you actually hit the daughter to reinforce it.
Spare the rod and spoil the asshole.
I don’t have children. But let me tell you why I feel fully qualified to comment on this.
First, I was a child. Of parents who hit.
Second, I have two sisters, and four sets of friends, whose kids I have babysat on a regular basis for most of their lives. The oldest of these kids is 14; I babysat for him from birth.
The reason I think this qualifies me is that I am less emotionally involved with the kids. Sure, I’m emotionally involved with them; but I have the option of objectivity. A parent does not. (Nonetheless, I understand that most parents reading this will be horrified that I claim a right to comment. I hope we can take this inevitable disagreement as a given, and not bog down too much on “who can or can’t comment” hijacks, though I’m not very optimistic.)
Here’s how simple it is: being hit by your parents teaches you exactly two things: how to get hit, and that your parents are something you should fear.
There is no corresponding benefit whatsoever.
Anyway, the reason I mentioned my “qualifications” is that, as a child who was hit, I have observed my friends and sisters and their children over the years, and watched the ones who hit and the ones who didn’t, and this–coupled with my own experience–is what has formed my strongly held opinion.
Reading Shag’s post, I am less vehemently opposed to corporal punishment in schools, because it’s not your parent hitting you. This is a fundamental betrayal, parent as agent of violence, that I would never wish on any person anywhere. And though I’d never support corporal punishment in schools, on a purely theoretical level I think it doesn’t engender that betrayal that violence from a parent does, so I don’t think it’s as damaging.
My parents would spank me, only with the open palm, and only on the butt. Enough that it would sting, but not enough for anything else. My parents set the rules, if we hit a sibling, cursed at them, or spit on them, we got what was called a double punishment. Each of my parents would spank us. Right after it happened, my parents would sit us down, and explain exactly why we were spanked. They would tell us that they did not like to spank us, but that was the rules that were laid out, so they would follow. It was much more effective than taking away the TV or nintendo. But I also knew that they did it, not out of anger, but as a reasonable punishment.
I do not agree with corporal punishment in anger, but if the rules are set before hand, and the parents talk to the kids about it, I see nothing wrong with it.
Mom was a hitter. By hitter, I mean switches, sticks, boards, small canoe paddles, vacuum cleaner poles, and at least one time, the flat of a butcher knife.
That’s too much hitting. You don’t hit from anger or frustration.
But I’m not opposed to corporal punishment. No way. Sometimes kids need a wake up call.
Kids who are almost never, ever spanked can sometimes get out of control. Emotionally, they’re spinning out, escalating. Grab 'em, spin 'em around and smack 'em on the ass. C’mon. That doesn’t really hurt. It startles, and that’s what you’re doing. Startle them, get them out of their own heads a moment, remind them who’s the adult, who’s setting boundaries they shall not cross.
Kids need that. Kids don’t need to grow up knowing they will never get a smack on the ass. Kids need boundaries within which they know the rules and it is perfectly safe. From there, they can grow and venture out and explore the world.
My mum did hit me also and pinch me when I did really stupid thing. As it happened, I quite be really fearful when I cause accidents around the househould and etc.
But I think nagging and emotional letdown do way more damage than physical punishment. Or maybe I didn’t recieve enough of physical punishment, but now most of my beef with my mum is are mostly emotional issues.
As to what form of discipline is best for the child, I think one shall tailor it to the personality and nature of the child. So is caning always bad? My on-the-fence answer is “It depends”.
Sometimes a quick slap is needed. Example – little child is about to touch a hot stove or stick a fork in an electrical outlet, or walk into a fireplace. You say “No!” or “Hot!” very sharply. You remove her from the danger. You explain, in simple terms. “That’s hot! It hurts! Don’t touch it!” If she repeats the behavior, this time you also smack her little hand, once, hard enough to get her distinct attention. She cries. You have created a connection between the stovetop and pain. This is a good thing.
What’s your alternative? Let her learn for herself that stoves can cause 3rd degree burns, or that a fork in an outlet can kill you? Sure, there are preventive measures, like outlet covers. But it’s also very, very important that a small child knows that when Mom or Dad says “No!” or “Stop!” that this order must be obeyed instantly and that the result of not doing so is very unpleasant. You can’t wrap the world in enough padding to keep it 100% safe, and there are certain things that must be learned immediately.
A friend of ours in the distant past believed that one must never, ever strike a child under any circumstances. Their home was on a busy road. The poor mom spent an inordinant amount of time chasing down the toddler to keep him out of the street. She would drag him back, *tell * him no, but he didn’t care. He wanted to go see the shiny cars in the road. I was on edge the entire time of our visit, thinking that one of those times she would not be quick enough.
I’m not talking about spankings in retribution for an 8- or 12-year-old’s bad report card or misbehavior. I’m talking about those few instances, especially in toddlers, that must be stopped *immediately * without hesitation or negotiation.
I also think that corporal punishment in school is an abomination. The schools in NJ have outlawed all forms of corporal punishment for at least 50 years, probably more. I never saw the need for it during my schooling, or in my teaching, either. Besides, if I needed to use physical force to control my high school classroom, I’d have been in serious trouble, since a good number of the students were stronger than I ever was.
I do, to an extent. A simple spanking now and then is far less abusive than not disciplining a child in any way, shape, or form. I’d far and away prefer a person use another form of correction, (my own parents made us stand in the corner for 1/2 hour+ rather than spank us, with a handful of exceptions each) perhaps 1-2-3 magic or something along those lines, but a quick swat is better than letting your kid grow up wild and without regard for others since they’ve never had any consequences for their poor behavior.
I’m with Shag on this. And I suspect a devolution of debate until some specifics on what qualifies as “hitting”. As said earlier, I doubt that anyone is going to advocate for beating or other obviously abusive punishment. But watching my sister-in-law pathetically attempt to reason with her 5 year old and make no headway, in addition to having been spanked occasionally as a child, leads me to believe that corporal punishment is not a bad thing. And some fear of a parent – that is, when you know did something wrong – is a valuable thing.
There’s also the appropriateness of age involved. Certainly, striking a teenager has different ramifications than spanking a child. Again, hitting a infant seems wrong and I doubt anyone would advocate for it. I like levdrakon’s distinction about “startling”; seems the best description yet. But then, I don’t (and won’t) have kids, so perhaps I should just keep my mouth shut.
I am a supporter of corporal punishment. However, I am a supporter of corporal punishment of both children and the elderly.
My four siblings and I share the majority of the hands on care of our beloved 86 year old grandmother, who requires almost around the clock care to keep her healthy and safe.
She has somewhat of a curious and defiant personality. I sometimes swat her on the behind when she does something dangerous, like try to walk out into a busy street. When I swat her I get immediate results, it gets her attention right away.
Sometimes my grandma needs a wake-up call. I grab her, I spin her around, and I smack her on the ass. I dont think it really hurts her, it startles her, and it gets her out of her head for a moment. It reminds her that I am the adult that is caring for her, and I have to set the boundaries to make sure that she is safe.
Sometimes a quick slap is needed. Example: When she is about to touch a hot stove or sit right next to the fireplace. After a warning, I smack her hand, hard enough to get her attention. She cries, but I have made the connection between the dangerous item and pain. This is a good thing.
What is my alternative? Let her learn that a stove top can give her 3rd degree burns? She needs to know that when I give an order, she must obey instantly, and the result of not doing so can be very unpleasant for her.
My grandmother is safe and happy. She has not fallen down the steps or cut herself on any sharp objects, or wandered off away from me thanks to corporal punishment.
I have seen other families try to manage their elderly family members by reasoning with them! Not only is it hilarious to watch them attempt it, since they know that they dont have the capacity to understand, but many of their elderly family members end up with broken hips. So sad. Three cheers for corporal punishment!
And that’s what you call an instant classic.
i have a two year old child, and i NEVER (unless he is about to put himself in danger because it gets the point across and he remembers it) spank him and NEVER plan to. i remember being spanked when i was younger. i was WAY more focused on how much i hated my father for doing it than why he did it. i also remember thinking how unrealistic my “consequences” were. a consequence is a natural thing, punishment for disobeying the almighty parent is not. all you need to teach another human being how to live is patience. spanking seems more like impulse anger on the part of the parent than understanding or preperation for the “real world”.
i’d also like to add,
Shagnasty, if a teacher had tried to spank me, i would have run away at the least and beat the living hell out of THEM at the most. are you a masochist by chance?
So you’re saying you will spank him, yes? We aren’t advocating beating our dependents, here.
No crows in this thread. The cornfield is safe! The wonderful strawman will keep them all away!
Even you must admit that was a beautiful post.
I don’t think it’s a strawman. It’s not irrelevant to mention how unnaceptable the comments made in this thread would be if they were applied to adults instead of children (and indeed some elderly adults are unable to live without supervision).
So it must be demonstrated why exactly they become necessary with kids (I make the assumption that if they aren’t necessary but simply convenient, they shouldn’t be used).