Re: zombie bashing. How tough are human skulls?

[Interconnected Series of Tubes]

So obviously everybody knows that, 28 Days Later rage zombies aside, you always need to remove the head or destroy the brain in order to permanently kill the already undead. There are of course various instruments for doing so: machetes, screwdrivers, the Batman Soundtrack, other zombies and so on. One common theme in a lot of films is the repeated-whack-with-a-blunt-object, ala Walking Dead's various baseball bat and rock-related scenes.

Now, assuming that stuff like cerebral hemorrhage or edema isn't enough to down the ravenous hoards, and that we need to actually induce physical trauma to the brain: how tough is that actually going to be? As I understand it, the human skull is actually a fairly robust structure, in the sense that, even if you crack it with a pipe a few times, it still isn't going to give way completely. But then, I've never repeatedly smashed a zombie with anything before, so my knowledge is limited in this.

Would, say, a half-dozen whacks from a baseball bat be enough? Obviously firearms or penetrating trauma through the eye would work, but how reliably can one really drive a butcher knife through a skull?

I suspect that (much to my dismay) a crowbar, even Freeman's, wouldn't be all that effective.

[srzss05]

Since this is all make-believe anyway, I think it can be reasonably assumed that an undead skull is more fragile than a living one.

[Mr. Slant]

It's a valid GQ, if we take it on the level of 'how hard is it to crack the human skull'.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by srzss05

Since this is all make-believe anyway, I think it can be reasonably assumed that an undead skull is more fragile than a living one.

Exactly. Zombies don't eat (well, after they destroy most of humanity around them they don't), so the calcium leaches away and is not replaced.

[Mr. Slant]

Please, can we avoid speculating on how much weaker zombie skulls are than pre-death human skulls?

If we start doing that, we're going to run into which of a dozen different zombie varieties we're discussing, and magical vs sci-fi hoodoo zombies, and...
The right approach is to handle this for baseline humans.

If we want to discuss Discworld zombies, let's open a CS thread for us, and if we want to do another zombie variety, open a separate thread for that..

[Capitaine Zombie]

Ha, zombie lawyers, they give a bad rep to the rest of us...

[griffin1977]

Yeah my take would be that it would be ALOT harder to take out the brain than Hollywood we lead us to believe. Never had any cause to test this mind you

The components of the human body are pretty tough as witnessed by the Mythbusters episode where they tried to reproduce the myth that a snapping cable can cut a man in half (OK, they actually used pigs rather than people, but I'm sure the results would be the same).

[B. Serum]

If you (still) have Netflix, you can stream episodes from the Deadliest Warrior. Just about every episode they show how much of an impact weapons have on the type of torso used for CSI investigations (and sometimes actual human or animal remains).

I'm sure this "Mafia vs. Yakuza" episode showed the real-life effect of a baseball bat to the cranium.

[Sasquatch]

Well, the skull's main purpose is to keep the squishy innards undisturbed, so not unexpectedly, it's pretty good at that. While the bone isn't all that thick, it is fairly strong, the generally egg-shaped and smooth structure resists impacts well and tends to deflect non-direct hits.

In the primitive world, I think only big predator teeth were likely to be any danger to the integrity of people's skulls. (not counting human attacks yet) Not searching medical journals, but it seems pretty unlikely a human could damage another human's skull without weapons. Even wooden clubs don't do that well, as wood is softer than skull and the scalp pads impacts. A big enough club and multiple blows will get the job done though.

Moving up, big rocks or metal weapons do pretty well. A heavy crowbar or tire iron will do OK, although you need to strike squarely or it may still deflect the blow. An edged or spiked weapon like something you'd see in a medieval battle is the proper tool for the job, there is a reason they look like they do.

If all you have is a baseball bat (aluminum hopefully) or a pipe, studding or spiking it will help. It reduces deflection or skidding off on a bad hit. Like an egg, once it is cracked or penetrated, the whole structure is weakened, so the spikes also help in weakening the skull so the next hit crunches it.

[Dissonance]

To quote Col. Lewis Millett who led the last bayonet charge in American military history in Korea:

I got him in the skull. It amazed me at the time, because, you know, you think of the head being hard. But it isn't, not for a good sharp bayonet. It went right in, and I remember thinking in the back of my mind, Jesus, it's just like cutting into a watermelon.

[Interconnected Series of Tubes]

Originally Posted by Mr. Slant

It's a valid GQ, if we take it on the level of 'how hard is it to crack the human skull'.

This is pretty much my question - although it sounds way creepier when you phrase it that way.

Consensus seems to be that once you evolve beyond anything more effective than a smooth wooden surface, you become capable of one-hit-zombie kills.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

If all you have is a baseball bat (aluminum hopefully) or a pipe, studding or spiking it will help. It reduces deflection or skidding off on a bad hit. Like an egg, once it is cracked or penetrated, the whole structure is weakened, so the spikes also help in weakening the skull so the next hit crunches it.

Why would aluminum be better? Aside from not splintering, what does it bring to the table? Is it a KE=1/2mv^2 kind of thing?

[Sasquatch]

I just meant you'd break a wooden bat before you got through a whole wave of zombies. Aluminum is a bit more rigid also, so I expect it would be slightly better at skull-cracking, but I doubt it would be much.

[Reno Nevada]

Originally Posted by griffin1977

The components of the human body are pretty tough as witnessed by the Mythbusters episode where they tried to reproduce the myth that a snapping cable can cut a man in half (OK, they actually used pigs rather than people, but I'm sure the results would be the same).

Really? I saw a (filmed) interview with a guy that got his legs cut off by a snapping cable, and talked with a guy that saw the incident (from another ship). It gives you a lot of respect for a line under tension (which was the point of the film). Did Mythbusters consider it a myth?

[Mr. Slant]

Your legs are smaller than your torso, Reno.

[griffin1977]

Originally Posted by Reno Nevada

Really? I saw a (filmed) interview with a guy that got his legs cut off by a snapping cable, and talked with a guy that saw the incident (from another ship). It gives you a lot of respect for a line under tension (which was the point of the film). Did Mythbusters consider it a myth?

Yup even in the worst case they could generate (a perfectly positioned pig carcass next to a very taught heavy-duty metal cable) they couldn't cut the pig in half. Not that I'd have wanted to be standing in that spot.

Though as Mr Slant mentioned they never tried just to sever a limb.

[mac_bolan00]

you people are so 70s. you don't kill a zombie by whacking what's left of the head. you cut them up into small gobs and burn them.

[Mr. Slant]

I had always taken you for a proponent of the .44 Automag school of zombie killin'.

[mac_bolan00]

i defected to the xanth school sometime back. hordes of zombies are unstoppable by my method. a token whack to the head gives the hero a sporting chance. you can outrun them but the scene always leaves you trapped in a corner, or dragging a bloody mangled leg with you. sorcerers also have found a way to soothe their persistent nature.

[Unintentionally Blank]

Originally Posted by Mr. Slant

I had always taken you for a proponent of the .44 Automag school of zombie killin'.

A Macheté never runs out of ammo.

[Dissonance]

Originally Posted by mac_bolan00

you people are so 70s. you don't kill a zombie by whacking what's left of the head. you cut them up into small gobs and burn them.

Some people still haven't gotten the memo? DO NOT USE FIRE The only thing worse than undead hordes trying to eat your brains is undead hordes trying to eat your brains WHILE ON FIRE

[NoCoolUserName]

Replying to immediate previous post by Mr. Slant...

Originally Posted by Capitaine Zombie

Ha, zombie lawyers, they give a bad rep to the rest of us...

Best follow-up post ever!

(Those who are not Discworld fans may safely ignore this.)

[BMalion]

Originally Posted by Unintentionally Blank

A Macheté never runs out of ammo.

And it doesn't jam.


I would use a morningstar.

[Attack from the 3rd dimension]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

I just meant you'd break a wooden bat before you got through a whole wave of zombies. Aluminum is a bit more rigid also, so I expect it would be slightly better at skull-cracking, but I doubt it would be much.

I think they made this to address the skull-cracking endurance question.

[Unintentionally Blank]

There's also the Stanley Fubar (http://www.stanleytools.com/default....TNUMBER=55-099) tho I suspect it wouldn't be the most contamination friendly piece o kit.