This is a couple questions in one post, so hopefully I can make them clear!
First, I have never taken a job where I had the opportunity to negotiate the terms of my employment vis-a-vis benefits or compensation. In fact, it’s not somthing that really would occurr to me. A (now former) co-worker just did exactly that, and was able to increast her starting salary by about 15%, as well as beginning with vacation time on the books.
It seems to me that I would be happy to just have a job and I’d be worried to blow it by asking for too much. How common is this, and is there the potential to piss off your prospective new employer by pushing it?
Is it typical to include some kind of separation package in the negotiation? Kind of a ‘if you get rid of me for a reason other than that I suck, you have to pay me X’?
Now the ethical question. Lets say a person is offered a job by a company, when the person has direct knowledge, as a result of their current employment, that said company’s position in a particular area is pretty precarious.
Is it ethical to take a position with the company and negotiate a nice separation package, with the knowledge that odds are not too bad you’ll get to collect it?
Of course, the employee would commit themselves fully to their employer’s goals, whatever they may be.
Not uncommon for executives of fortune 500s, not done by working shrubs who are victim of the corporate severance policy. Small company, ask. Although recognize that offers in hand can get rescinded and “what do I get if you go under” isn’t exactly projecting the sort of faith in a company most managers are looking for.
I probably overstated the jeopardy the organization is in, but there are definitely some issues that might make it a risky move.
Thing is, I was talking with them about the position about a year ago, and it never went anywhere. Then they e-mailed out of the blue last week to invite me to interview.
It would defintely be a pay raise, but like I said, it’s possible that I might not have the job in two years.
There are some interesting conflict-of-interest type questions in the mess. For example, right now one of my main priorities is basically to take ‘market share’ away from them.
Just occurred to me they could hire me and immediately fire me! Ha! Does that happen?
Sure, if you gave 'em a reason to. New hires aren’t magically immune to being terminated if they’re, say caught doing drugs in the bathroom or something.
Coincidentally, just received another e-mail from them. I had replied to them over the weekend that of course I am still interested etc.etc.
Their message today advised me that there have been some changes. The position they are opening in this location is not the original one we discussed. It’s actually one with higher pay and more responsibility. Also, the have to post the job online as part of the process, but I should look for it and submit my resume on Tuesday.
They hope that this position will be of interest to me.
Um. The whole ‘if something seems to good’ thing is itching the back of my brain.
I don’t think it’s inappropriate for you to say that one thing you like about your current job is stability and that it would be a concern if you took a position at this company. See if they can put your mind at ease. The fact that you’ve already got a job means you could also inquire about a severence package in the event that you’re laid off. If they don’t like it, they won’t extend an offer. Now, if you were unemployed, I’d say forget about the damn severence package and try like hell to get this job.
You’re interviewing them as much as they’re interviewing you. It’s totally kosher to ask about their five year plan for the market and where you would fit in it. It could be bullshit, of course, as much as any other answer in an interview.
On the compensation thing: if they make you an offer, countering with +10-20% on salary plus an extra week of vacation would not be out of line.
It doesn’t hurt to ask in this circumstance. It’s certainly reasonable to discuss the costs and risks of any job change.
You should negotiate for the best you can get. And the first step is getting their offer complete before responding with a counter offer. If you ask about additional benefits before you know what the standard ones are, they’ll just offer you the standard benefits in return. Once you know what the full offer is, you have to consider your actual needs. How does this affect your commuting costs? Will you need a new wardrobe? How about the affect on other parts of your life? Do you see a lot of extra time at the office or travel coming up? So you have to decide if the terms offered are worth the economic factors in changing jobs. Then on top of that you need some satisfaction from your payscale and benefits. So your counter offer should reflect what you really need from the job, and what you think you are really worth. Since you wouldn’t expect to get everything you ask for, you have to ask for more that just that also. A good approach is to ask for more salary, more benefits like a seperation package, more basic benefits like vacation time, and the goodies, like laptops tablets, phones, etc. And be prepared not to get some of those things.
I’ll say that you are in a good position. They are recruiting you, and that’s a good thing. You’re overall strategy should be to get them convinced that they want you before you begin negotiating. If they make the decision that they want you before the terms are settled, you’re in the cat bird’s seat. Just don’t try to milk it. Ask for things on a reasonable basis. You want more salary because it’s commensurate with your experience and abilities. You’d like more vacation time because you would be getting it if you stayed at your current job. You’d live a severance package because of the state of the employment market.
And don’t make your first counter offer sound like a ‘take or leave it’ proposition.
Excellent points and advice all, thank you. I’ve been wanting to make a jump out of the public sector for a while, and this might be my opportunity…but I guess I have a lot to learn about not working for the guv’mint!
A followup question (this is probably getting confusing…don’t try to piece the whole scenario together!): My contacts at this prospective job will be some of my same current contacts. However, I will be working for the ‘other side’. How should I handle that when they ask why, all of a sudden, I play for a different team? Of course they know the answer is probably money, but the questions will still be asked. I’m working on some options that I think would probably fly, but maybe someone else has been in a similar situation.
Well, like I said, it’s an interesting situation. It’s not a conflict of interest in the classic sense, but it’s there.
Briefly, there is a service provided by the government. A similar service is also provided by the vendor in question. The vendor has a majority share of a particular area, but clients who utilize the vendor are a source of major quality issues, which end up reflecting quite poorly on the public entity rather than the vendor.
The initial position would have been to assist in improving the quality of the vendors clients. The new position appears to be acquiring new and maintaining current clients. My current position at the gov. is a combination of both of those jobs, but on the ‘other side’.
Do you mean hire you and then fire you to get their ‘market share’ back?
One of my sales people (meaning he sells stuff to me) does that. There are several huge food service vendors in the area. I’ve seen him poach people that have only been working for one of the other places for a few months or a year, drain them of everything they know and then toss them back out on the street. He gets knowledge of things the other vendor is doing, learns about products his place doesn’t have (and what he can substitute), gets clients that he didn’t already have etc… and in the mean time he makes them do all his busywork.
Sure, maybe that makes him kind of a jerk in that respect, but he’s also one of the top 5 sales people in the country for one of the biggest food service vendors in the US.
But yeah, if that’s what you’re worried about, sure, it’s possible. It’s also possible that since you poached those clients, he wants them back and he figures you have the skills to get more. If all he wanted was the customers back, he’d just call them or hire someone at your firm that’s cheaper then you that also has the contacts.
Get what you can based on the inside info you bring with you. You can impress them with your abilities after you get the job. You will become the competition, so as long as it’s not illegal, or unethical based upon known, established guidelines, than you have to use your knowledge for the benefit of your new employer.
Anyway, I think Joey P is right, and this probably isn’t a situation where they’re hiring you just to poach clients. That’s a very short sighted way to operate.
This all sounds so bizarre. Why would a company hire you and then fire you out of spite? But companies, especially small ones, can and do terminate people who don’t work out.
Now negotiating a severence package for some low level employee is a bit unusual too. Really what you looking for is a contract
(good negotiation will DRASTICALLY alter your life, and the person on the other side of the table isn’t NEAR as interested in the outcome as you should be.)
I work in a niche market in Japan, and my list of contacts are probably more valuable than I am to a number of companies. I’ve worked for a number of companies, and regularly show up as a member of “the other team.” I’ve solved that by starting my own company, and it seems to make everyone happy.
Anyway, you are over thinking the questions customers have. People are used to vendors switching companies. No one will bat an eye.
As msmsith537 says, negotiate a contract (for say two years) if you really are concerned that they may be just buying you to get contracts.