Could We Produce Power from Hamsters in Wheels?

[JoshuaSD]

We are in an age when alternate energy sources are being brought forth from every corner. Watching a hamster running full tilt in his little wheel got me thinking.

Could a hamster (or other small rodent who likes running in wheels) be used to generate electricity via a generator connected to the wheel?

If yes. What is the largest generator a (relatively) lightweight hamster could turn and produce X? amount of power?

Given that, how many would be required to power a light bulb, refrigerator, car house etc.?

Assuming we are reasonably humane about this, would the care costs outweigh the power production?
i.e. Cost of food, cleaning, disposal of waste and of course climate control.

I know its not a serious solution but we use animals for so many human needs Im thinking the rodents could start earning their cheese for once.

[CC]

Shirley, you can't be serious.

[si_blakely]

Just to give you some context, it took a team of 80 human (cycling club) cyclists to provide the power for a house and family of four for a day, with a base load of 10 to 20, and a peak load of more than 40, running 20 minute shifts. And they browned out.
You are going to need a lot of hampsters.

Si

[Covered_In_Bees!]

There's a message board somewhere on the internet that's been powering their software with hamsters for quite some time now. I'll see if I can track it down. Hopefully they will not have finished their war on ignorance before I can find them.

[Arkcon]

Originally Posted by JoshuaSD

Assuming we are reasonably humane about this, would the care costs outweigh the power production?
i.e. Cost of food, cleaning, disposal of waste and of course climate control.

Under the basic, bog standard, kiddie in grammar school definition of thermodynamics ... no.

No animal produces more running energy than it eats.

No animal produces more motion -- breathing, circulation and running than it eats, and your method doesn't capture breathing and heart motion. 'Cause if it did the animal would be doing double work, what with inflating its lungs and pushing whatever strap across its chest you've rigged.

No animal produces more motion, cellular metabolic energy, nerve cell energy than it eats. In fact, even less, some is always wasted as heat.

TANSTAAFL

[JoshuaSD]

Serious? No of course not. But sill...

As for a lot of hamsters.
Well rodents breed like rabbits. (redundant)
They don't need a lot of space. 2 o 3 to a cage. thousands of cages lined up like a file room.
In my head there is a "Matrix" like building full of hamsters running and running. Ever watched a hamster run? It makes me laugh every time I think about it.

Like I said its not a serious solution but maybe someone with engineering knowledge, a good idea about the types of small generators out there and a little spare time on their hands could come up with a hamster equivalent number to the 80 human cyclists.

Im sure we are talking about millions of the little guys. Maybe more. But thats the reason for the operating costs question. Would the electrical costs of air conditioning the building outweigh the power they could produce?

[Dr. Drake]

I don't think you're considering hamster fuel (food). Hamsters need to eat and drink, and that means energy is expended in producing their little pellets and water bottles. It's sort of like you're asking why you can't just plug in a generator to produce all the electricity you want.

[JoshuaSD]

Originally Posted by Arkcon

Under the basic, bog standard, kiddie in grammar school definition of thermodynamics ... no.

No animal produces more running energy than it eats.

No animal produces more motion -- breathing, circulation and running than it eats, and your method doesn't capture breathing and heart motion. 'Cause if it did the animal would be doing double work, what with inflating its lungs and pushing whatever strap across its chest you've rigged.

No animal produces more motion, cellular metabolic energy, nerve cell energy than it eats. In fact, even less, some is always wasted as heat.

TANSTAAFL

This I know but the cost to feed and care -v- the "market cost" to the user of the electricity. IE I pay "x" amount for electricity from the power company who uses "conventional" methods to produce my power. Like burning coal.

If I have a million hamsters generating power with a million generators can I get power from them that would outweigh the cost of caring for them.

All this is assuming that there is a generator that a small rodent could even turn. I dont know if that even exists. That would need to be the first question answered.

[Musicat]

Originally Posted by JoshuaSD

If I have a million hamsters generating power with a million generators can I get power from them that would outweigh the cost of caring for them.

Only if you repeal the laws of thermodynamics.

[drewtwo99]

What if we exposed the hamsters to radiation and mutated them in a way that would allow them super speed and the ability to photosynthesize at incredible rates? Could we do it then??? Why isn't anyone working on this?

[Baffle]

You also have to feed the hamsters.

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by drewtwo99

What if we exposed the hamsters to radiation and mutated them in a way that would allow them super speed and the ability to photosynthesize at incredible rates? Could we do it then??? Why isn't anyone working on this?

Wouldn't it be simpler to bring in a few radioactive spiders to bite the hamsters and give them super powers?

[Heracles]

Originally Posted by JoshuaSD

If I have a million hamsters generating power with a million generators can I get power from them that would outweigh the cost of caring for them.

No, every hamster produces less energy than the food it consumes. Multiply that by a million and you get a deficit a million times greater. You're probably better off burning the food directly (and maybe the hamsters, while you're at it) and using the heat to generate your electricity.

All this is assuming that there is a generator that a small rodent could even turn. I dont know if that even exists. That would need to be the first question answered.

Oh, I'm sure there are such generators. You just hook up a tiny dynamo to the hamster wheel, it can probably generate at least a few milliwatts without giving too much resistance for the rodent to handle.

[MetroGnome]

Here's the real question: is the original proposed model any more efficient than just burning the hamsters directly as fuel?

*dammit, Heracles beat me to it.

[Twoflower]

Think of it in terms of "What is the most efficient way to convert X tons of hamster food into Y watts of electricity?" My WAG is that burning it to run a generator would beat feeding it to hamsters to run in a wheel.

ETA - I hadn't even though of burning the hamsters themselves...

[Senegoid]

Originally Posted by JoshuaSD

This I know but the cost to feed and care -v- the "market cost" to the user of the electricity. IE I pay "x" amount for electricity from the power company who uses "conventional" methods to produce my power. Like burning coal.

If I have a million hamsters generating power with a million generators can I get power from them that would outweigh the cost of caring for them.

Wait a minute! You're all answering the wrong question! As JoshuaSD clarifies here, he's talking about cost not calories ! Taking into account disparities in the market cost of various commodities (direct fuel vs. cost of hamster food and care), the question is at least a legitimate question. I'm sure the answer is still NO, this won't pan out -- but that's just a WAG.

Remember Milo Minderbinder, the character in Catch-22, who bought eggs for three cents each and sold them for two cents each, and still made a profit, by playing the disparities of the international markets and currency exchange rates!

We need experts in thermodynamics and hamster husbandry to whip out their slide rules to get to the bottom of this!

[GIGObuster]

Uhh, too late:

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=102&i=3682

"Hamster Car" – Winner of Dream Car Contest for School and University Students

Designed to look like a ladybird, this car has windows where a ladybird has spots. More unique is the source of power as the motor is driven by amplifying the electric power generated by hamsters running.

[Sethcrzygy86]

But there is no additional cost for food, because you'd only use pets, 6that way they would be on their wheels anyway. The idea being to harness the energy of the wheel currently going unharnessed now.

[cochrane]

What if you could train guinea pigs to row a tiny boat?

[Michael63129]

Another problem that hasn't been mentioned is that hamsters don't run all the time (having had them as a child); they are also nocturnal and spend most of the time sleeping (plus doing everything else besides running on the wheel). So you'd have to create artificial day/night cycles for them so they would be staggered out enough to provide continuous power (which also increases the number needed; for example, 4 hours of running a day would need 6 times as many hamsters). Or just use them at night and use solar during the day.

[Senegoid]

Originally Posted by Sethcrzygy86

But there is no additional cost for food, because you'd only use pets, 6that way they would be on their wheels anyway. The idea being to harness the energy of the wheel currently going unharnessed now.

See post #6 above. He is envisioning deployment of hamsters on industrial scale, with massive hamster plantations, lined up in cages from horizon to horizon.

This, of course, is already done with other species, such as humans working in so-called "customer service" call centers. Nothing new here.

[si_blakely]

Originally Posted by Twoflower

ETA - I hadn't even though of burning the hamsters themselves...

Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett

Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Si

[Mangetout]

Originally Posted by Sethcrzygy86

But there is no additional cost for food, because you'd only use pets, 6that way they would be on their wheels anyway. The idea being to harness the energy of the wheel currently going unharnessed now.

The system will never pay for itself. Ignoring the energy cost of manufacturing the food (let's say you have a source of something hamsters will eat that is otherwise going to waste), it still won't pay for itself, or at least I don't think so - because the amount of energy produced by the individual hamsters in homes still has to outweigh the amount of energy used to manufacture the generator equipment.

Let's also ignore the difficulty of making use of a very small amount of electrical power and assume we've got a magical device that allows us to feed picowatts of power into the grid without just losing it. Let's just look at the generator equipment:

The generator is going to be some kind of dynamo composed of magnets, metal wires, carbon brushes, metal casings, plastic or metal bearings, fittings, circuitry and other gubbins. Let's simplify that to a 1 inch cube of copper, a similar cube of steel and another of plastic.

If you stored up the power produced by one hamster on a wheel, during the whole of its (18 month maximum, in my experience) life, would it be enough to smelt and form the copper and steel, and manufacture and mould the plastic? I really doubt it. That's without even invoking thermodynamics - this is just economics.

[psychonaut]

Originally Posted by JoshuaSD

Well rodents breed like rabbits. (redundant)

Why? Rabbits aren't rodents.

[Sailboat]

Originally Posted by Senegoid

Wait a minute! You're all answering the wrong question! As JoshuaSD clarifies here, he's talking about cost not calories ! Taking into account disparities in the market cost of various commodities (direct fuel vs. cost of hamster food and care), the question is at least a legitimate question.

This will work if we can swing a Federal Hamster Subsidy.

Originally Posted by JoshuaSD

In my head there is a "Matrix" like building full of hamsters running and running.

Taken out of context, that's a great quote.

Seriously, though -- just supplying them with tiny black trench coats and sunglasses would probably eat up your subsidy.

[Whammo72]

Originally Posted by Senegoid

See post #6 above. He is envisioning deployment of hamsters on industrial scale, with massive hamster plantations, lined up in cages from horizon to horizon.

This, of course, is already done with other species, such as humans working in so-called "customer service" call centers. Nothing new here.

*looks around my cube farm*


Awe.

[Kevbo]

I don't know of any research on the power capacity of rodents, but humans have been well studied.

A human on a bicycle, which is a pretty efficient way of extracting power, can _sustain_ 200W...give or take. TdF riders may nearly double that, and couch spuds may struggle to do half. There were actually some early machines that used humans inside treadwheels for power, but these gave way to pedal power as soon as it became economical to build them...so we can suppose requiring that the hamsters support their weight will cut significantly into the efficiency.

As a pure WAG, I'd guess you could get perhaps 1/2W or so (mechanical) per hamster, and around 1/2-2/3 that by the time it was converted to electricity. Note that you will need to keep the cool enough that they don't overheat.

[Eliot Ness]

SNAILS
are now producing electrical power!
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/sc...1&ref=science#

[Quercus]

Thermodynamics is a distracting non-issue.

Of course you'll get less electrical energy out of a hamster-wheel than the energy contained in the hamster chow. But that's true of any electrical generator; no electrical generation scheme is 100% efficient. If you burn the hamster chow to run a steam-turbine generator, you'll also end up with less electrical energy than was in the hamster chow. We still produce electricity because it's a lot more useful than other kinds of energy, and we'd rather have 1kW-hour of electricity than 2 kW-hr of, say, mechanical energy, or heat energy or whatever.

So the question is, can we make a hamster-generation system economically efficient enough to be worthwhile? That depends partly on how efficient the system is, and also on how much it costs to make, how valuable the electricity is, and how valuable the hamster chow input is.

I doubt hamsters are going to be very efficient right now. If nothing else, smaller animals generally have a higher overhead, metabolically speaking, so feeding horses would probably be a better deal.

But, trying hard, I can maybe barely imagine some scenario where, hamster generation might make sense. Obviously fossil carbon emissions are seriously restricted (so electricity is relatively more expensive). Then we need some widespread agricultural/industrial process that produces lots of byproduct that's somehow uniquely suited to be hamster food (Hows this? It's all contaminated with, oh, lead, and hamsters are the only animal that scientists have managed to genetically engineer to be lead-poisoning resistant and extra-efficient metabolically). Hey, in this weird future world, maybe vast hamster-wheel farms would be economically viable.

[Michael63129]

Realistically, you could use a hamster wheel generator to power a LED night-light, as this person did. Otherwise, it is too impractical.

Also, if you are keeping the hamster as a pet in the first place (as opposed to a vast hamster farm), there is no additional overhead from doing this; the hamster might eat some more due to generator resistance (but note in the link that they put ball bearings on the wheel, which otherwise don't have any bearings and are cheaply made).

[Pessemist]

Look, you guys need to think outside the (hamster) box.

Hamsters are not going to endlessly run a cage endlessly. A better idea is to dangle a plate hooked to a flywheel that turns a generator.

Train the gerbil to run out onto the plate to eat a pellet of food and as the weight of the gerbil pulls the plate down the flywheel is turned.

As the plate reaches the bottom the pellet of food is consumed and the gerbil runs back up to the top to get another. The plate, meanwhile, sans the gerbils weight rises back up--another pellet drops and the cycle repeats.

Pesse (Use crack cocaine pellets and you can substituent people for gerbils) Mist

[ruh-roh]

Ever tried to crank one of those old phone DC generators that could barely light a flash-light sized bulb? It isn't easy for any period of time.
Hamster wheels work because they have very little friction. The basic energy comes from the Hamster climbing up the wheel and gravity pulling the critters mass back down. Not much potential / kinetic energy there. Hook up a generator and it becomes a stationary ladder, unless you are talking a very miniscule generator.

That is where the scale of a nations power consumption comes into play. Few people really understand the amount of power that is used. Anybody who wants to replace coal and nukes with something else needs to look up some numbers and do some basic math.

Burning the critters, or any life form ( Soylent Green ?) will get you into real trouble. Life as we know it, is carbon based. Burning it will just release carbon and cause global warming.

off-topic...
For us U.S. mid-westerners, the real problem of climate change is that if it is going to raise the sea levels, we have to make sure it happens fast enough that all those people who live on the coasts don't get a chance to move inland first. Time to call up the local power plant and have them throw a few extra hamsters in the heater.

[Shirley Ujest]

Forget hampsters.

Jack Russell terriers are where the energy is at.

They are on all the farking time.

[Nunzio Tavulari]

OK, forget the hamsters. What if we hook up the gym down the street. All the stationary bicycles, treadmills, stair climbers and rowing machines. Surely we can generate enough juice to light the neon sign out front.

Then we do the gym down the street from that.

And if three gyms do it, three--can you imagine gyms with all their machines hooked up, powering the neon sign out front? They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty gyms a day, I said fifty gyms a day with all their machines hooked up, powering the neon sign out front? And friends they may think it's a movement.

[ruh-roh]

Originally Posted by Nunzio Tavulari

...

And if three gyms do it, three--can you imagine gyms with all their machines hooked up, powering the neon sign out front? They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty gyms a day, I said fifty gyms a day with all their machines hooked up, powering the neon sign out front? And friends they may think it's a movement.

But if only two gyms hook up their machines, what will people think about the gym's members?

[Mangetout]

Originally Posted by ruh-roh

Burning the critters, or any life form ( Soylent Green ?) will get you into real trouble. Life as we know it, is carbon based. Burning it will just release carbon and cause global warming.

That's more or less carbon neutral, unless you've been feeding your hamsters coal - the carbon in their bodies comes from their food, which was taken out of the atmosphere by plants.

[squidfood]

Originally Posted by Nunzio Tavulari

All the stationary bicycles, treadmills, stair climbers and rowing machines. Surely we can generate enough juice to light the neon sign out front.

Looks like it!

[septimus]

Originally Posted by MetroGnome

Here's the real question: is the original proposed model any more efficient than just burning the hamsters directly as fuel?

The way I read OP the food had no extra cost: these were pet hamsters to begin with, but instead of playing with them, the kid now just watches the hamsters generate electricity. Hamster pays his way. Kid learns life is tough. Win-Win.

Now you guys are burning the hamsters directly for electricity. Sheeeze. You sickos.

[JoshuaSD]

OK first of its so cool that my second thread ever is in the "threadspotting" section.

I kinda figured that feeding them and cleaning up after them would probably outweigh the energy they could generate however I still see the main question not answered.

Is there any small generator that something as lightweight as a hamster could even turn?

I have a hand held flashlight that has a crank that charges a battery and in turn powers 3 LED bulbs for a surprisingly long time. Its small enough to fit the needs but I suspect the turning is more than a hamster could muster. Is there anything on the market that takes little effort? Even if the payoff is minimal.

Thanks all for taking a silly post even a little seriously.

[Modevo]

You would need to buy a lot of hamsters, and half of them would probably die from overwork, unless you buy a swarm and make them work in shifts.

[Musicat]

Originally Posted by JoshuaSD

OK first of its so cool that my second thread ever is in the "threadspotting" section.

You're welcome.

Is there any small generator that something as lightweight as a hamster could even turn?

Sure, but just how much energy do you think one puny hamster could generate?

Originally Posted by Modevo

You would need to buy a lot of hamsters, and half of them would probably die from overwork, unless you buy a swarm and make them work in shifts.

Like this?

[Greg Charles]

Originally Posted by JoshuaSD

Serious? No of course not. But sill...
Well rodents breed like rabbits. (redundant)

Rabbits aren't rodents, if that's what you're implying.

Something like this came up when we were discussing why exercise bikes don't come with generators, with the upshot being that a human biker would be hard put to power a single 100 watt light bulb while going full power. Hamster generators just would never produce enough energy to pay for the equipment, feeding, and logistics involved.

[septimus]

I hope JoshuaSD is pleased to note that a certain Isaac Newton beat him to this invention:

He is remembered from [his early teen-age years] in Grantham for 'his strange inventions and extraordinary inclination for mechanical works'. Among these were a windmill powered by a treadmill run by a mouse - the latter urged on by tugs on a string tied to its tail ...

[Civil Guy]

Five-year-olds. Now, there's an energy source just going to waste.

We'd have to make it look like play time, wouldn't we? Pesky child labor laws to work around, too. Some kind of device that didn't depend on the kids running in the same direction for any length of time. Parental consent forms... snack time... nap time...

Darn. It seems so promising.

[Senegoid]

Originally Posted by Nunzio Tavulari

And if three gyms do it, three--can you imagine gyms with all their machines hooked up, powering the neon sign out front? They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty gyms a day, I said fifty gyms a day with all their machines hooked up, powering the neon sign out front? And friends they may think it's a movement.

I didn't see any follow-up posts yet, expressing any appreciation of the vast implications here. Why is it up to me to have to state this? If you have fifty gyms a day powering their neon signs with human treadmills, friends, you'll have The Alice's Gymnasium Anti-Hamster Massacree Movement. And all you have to do to join it, my friends, is sing along the next time it comes around on the treadmill. . . .

We're just waiting for it to come around on the treadmill here . . .

[Wheelz]

All I know is, ain't nobody puttin' no hamsters up in me.

[JoshuaSD]

Originally Posted by septimus

I hope JoshuaSD is pleased to note that a certain Isaac Newton beat him to this invention:

Of course Newton beat me to it. He seems to have beat me to every one of my great ideas.

As for the five-year-olds. I'm thinking a sound proof booth at every restaurant. Inside a giant treadmill. It will both power the restaurant and silence the screaming kids so I can eat in quiet well lit ambiance.

So there Newton invent that!

[X. L. Lent]

Looks like someone has already found a way to do it. Link here.

[JoshuaSD]

Originally Posted by X. L. Lent

Looks like someone has already found a way to do it. Link here.

Thats perfect! I knew hamsters rocked.
Assuming its legitimate, and from the video and pictures I have no reason to think its not, I think I may just try it out myself. At least once I finish the other 10,000 projects around the house that need doing.

Thanks to all. This was way more than I ever thought I would get on this absurd but fun little topic. SD comes through once again.

[Senegoid]

Originally Posted by JoshuaSD

Thanks to all. This was way more than I ever thought I would get on this absurd but fun little topic. SD comes through once again.

No ignorance is too absurd to be fought!