Is the Star Wars EU as awful as it looks?

[drastic_quench]

I've been clicking around Wookiepedia and Wikipedia out of a mild interest in seeing what became of the characters from the original movies in this thing called the "extended universe," and it just looks bad to me, honestly. The character plot summaries sound worse than the prequels, the names are hokey even by Lucas standards, and it just smacks of cheesy fanfiction. Is there anything worthwhile here? Or can you judge a book by it's cover?

[Beastly Rotter]

The Knights of the Old Republic games are better and more Star Wars than the last three and a half actual movies.

[Miller]

Man, it really depends. The EU covers a ton of stuff. To a sufficient volume that you can apply Sturgeon's Law to it, and still come up with a fair amount of good material.

The Old Republic stuff, for example, comes from the line of computer RPGs made by BioWare, and they're really first rate. The most recent title, a World of Warcraft style online game, does a really neat job of executing a complex, character-driven storyline in an MMO format, which I'd have sworn wasn't even possible.

I've also heard really good things about the animated Clone Wars TV series, but I haven't seen more than one episode myself. Unfortunately, that episode focused on Jar Jar pretending to be a Jedi, so I haven't seen any episodes since then. My friends assure me that the episode I saw was not representative of the series, but I'm uncertain how far I can trust them.

I've also read some comics that were pretty good, but the names escape me now.

I stopped reading the novels back in high school when they got too stupid, and from what I've heard of them since then, that was probably the right call.

[magnusblitz]

It varies widely in quality. There are some gems, some average stories, and some total dreck.

As Beastly Rotter mentioned, the KOTOR games are excellent. The KOTOR comic was pretty good too. I'm a fan of the Crimson Empire comics, though they might be a little bit fanfictiony for people's tastes. Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy is good. (I wasn't a fan of the duology that followed, but others liked it).

Originally Posted by Miller

I've also heard really good things about the animated Clone Wars TV series, but I haven't seen more than one episode myself. Unfortunately, that episode focused on Jar Jar pretending to be a Jedi, so I haven't seen any episodes since then. My friends assure me that the episode I saw was not representative of the series, but I'm uncertain how far I can trust them.

Are you talking about the hand-drawn one or the CGI one? The hand-drawn one was good (though very action-heavy). The CGI one is... well, it's for kids, so it may be hit or miss for everyone.

[grude]

Originally Posted by Miller

I've also heard really good things about the animated Clone Wars TV series, but I haven't seen more than one episode myself. Unfortunately, that episode focused on Jar Jar pretending to be a Jedi, so I haven't seen any episodes since then. My friends assure me that the episode I saw was not representative of the series, but I'm uncertain how far I can trust them..

Check out the Umbara arc of Clone Wars, highpoint of the show IMHO.

http://clonewars.wikia.com/wiki/Umbara_Arc

The Umbara Arc is based on Jedi Master Krell leading an attack on Umbara. This Arc consists of four episodes.

Recently the show after improving leaps and bounds over its early episodes(the mentioned Jar Jar Bink appearance) has recently been going off the rails a bit, like a lot of the EU they are obsessed with making force users overpowered(a force user on the show was able to animate an army of dead bodies)

[Gukumatz]

There's a lot of in-the-middle stuff as well. Like the X-Wing Series, which follows two very, very minor characters from the original trilogy in the military campaign against the Empire after Return of the Jedi. (Wedge Antilles and Tycho Celchu, two of the few pilots who also survive the Death Star run.) They're well written, entertaining and manage to carve out a niche of their own likeable characters and conflicts. Some of the main characters make cameos every now and then (Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Leia Organa, Chewbacca) but it's mostly about these other guys fighting on a smaller scale.

But yeah, there is a significant amount of trash. I was stuck in bed with a broken leg, an e-reader and a bad sci-fi hankering for a month some years back. Urgh. I'd pretty much avoid anything with one of the old, main characters headlining.

[Rubixcube]

It's full of ups and downs, the very best novels essentially amount to decent or unremarkable sci-fi when compared to the genre proper. Most of it's mediocre, a chunk of it's bad, a small amount is terrible, and a smaller amount is great. IMHO there has only been a few truly awful novels, most of them are fun action Sci-Fi romps if nothing more.

[Smapti]

As has been noted, EU is essentially an umbrella term for "Anything licensed by Lucasfilm that isn't one of the six film Episodes." There's the good, and the bad, and the so bad it's good, and the so bad that it drags you kicking and screaming away in the night to a place beyond good and evil and abandons you there naked shivering and alone.

[Grumman]

Don't read anything by Kevin J. Anderson (because his ideas are stupid) or Karen Traviss except maybe her first book (because her ideas are stupid and offensive).

But there are good books in the EU - as you might expect when you've got so many different authors working in a setting that doesn't completely suck. Timothy Zahn's books are all good, for starters, and the first ones can be read right after Return of the Jedi without any difficulties.

[well he's back]

This is why I'm glad the Tolkien estate protected Middle Earth. All the LOTR "EU" stuff remains unpublished fanfic, thank God.

[silenus]

Tossing my support behind the Zahn books and the X-Wing series. Well, some of them.

In addition to the Thrawn books, which are great, Zahn has also given us the story behind the "Outward Bound" project and what happened to it.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by well he's back

This is why I'm glad the Tolkien estate protected Middle Earth. All the LOTR "EU" stuff remains unpublished fanfic, thank God.

What? No love for the Gandalf/Merry slashfic?

[FinnAgain]

Zahn, as noted, is awesome.
I read a few more books as a kid and remember most of them being fairly unimpressive.

[drastic_quench]

Thanks for the replies!

[Quimby]

Books, yes. Comics and video games have a better track record.

ETA: I think Zahn had the advantage of being the first. His books were the first new Star Wars in over a decade which gave him a bit of a pass because it gave us new adventures for characters we were desperate to see again. They aren't terrible like some others but they really aren't that good (IMO of course).

[Max the Immortal]

Relevant Penny Arcade 4th Panel (warning: NSFW language).

[shy guy]

I'm probably not a very reliable opinion on these matters, since I find something to like about even the dumbest and most pointless piece of EU trash, but I genuinely think there's some good stuff to be found there.

One thing I really love are the Dark Horse Star Wars Tales books. A bunch of short stories from all over the Star Wars Universe by all kinds of creators in all kinds of genres. There are some real gems in there.

I'll also second the recommendations for the Zahn and X-Wing books. I'm not saying they're great literature, but they're a lot of fun.

I'm also a big fan of both sets of Clone Wars cartoons. I like the first set better than the series, because the animation is gorgeous, but the CGI cartoon is surprisingly good; certainly much better than its source material.

Overall, I have a harder time getting into any EU material produced after the prequels started up, but a number of creators have managed to do some cool stuff with some awful characters.

[Ethilrist]

First thought: Star Wars has joined the European Union? Lucas MUST BE STOPPED.

[Evil Captor]

Originally Posted by Max the Immortal

Relevant Penny Arcade 4th Panel (warning: NSFW language).

NSFW ... I'll say! Darth ... Undeadu?

[johnspartan]

This far in and nobody's brought up Splinter In the Mind's Eye?

That one's worth a read if for no other reason than where it falls in the timeline. Written after A New Hope but before ESB was even really fleshed out, much less released.

[Gray Ghost]

Originally Posted by johnspartan

This far in and nobody's brought up Splinter In the Mind's Eye?

That one's worth a read if for no other reason than where it falls in the timeline. Written after A New Hope but before ESB was even really fleshed out, much less released.

I was wondering when someone would mention that. I have a soft spot for it, as well as the Han Solo books written by Brian Daley. The Lando Calrissian series written by L. Neil Smith wasn't terrible either. And, surprisingly, not jam-packed with Libertarian viewpoints.

[drastic_quench]

Originally Posted by Max the Immortal

Relevant Penny Arcade 4th Panel (warning: NSFW language).

Jeez, Mike has some Steve-Buscemi-level weird teeth. Does he have one massive tooth on his lower jaw that grows directly under his tongue? Sorry, I've never seen a video of him before.

[Smeghead]

One time, many many moons ago, when I was single and had way too much time on my hands, I decided I was being a book snob and that I should try one of those Star Wars novels I'd scoffed at for so long. After reading several threads like this one, there seemed to be a consensus that the Zahn trilogy was the best of the batch, so I picked them up at a used bookstore and gave them a shot.

For me, they just barely squeaked by on the right side of the finish reading/throw across the room dividing line. Just barely. They were not very good, is what I'm saying. That is, of course, MHO, and YMMV.

[GargoyleWB]

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost

...as well as the Han Solo books written by Brian Daley...

I thought these were quite good, simple action pulp and true to the character and feel of the original movies. The best part? They aren't fetishistically obsessed with The Force, Sith, and jedis---just good old blasters, dogfights, and smugglers.

[Bosstone]

I think everyone remembers Zahn fondly, but hasn't read that trilogy recently. Neither have I, and I remember it as being good for Star Wars fiction, but it's been 10+ years since I last read them.

The Han Solo trilogy was pretty good, and the Calrissian trilogy was...interesting, but it got weird at times.

Personally I really enjoyed the Corellian trilogy by Roger Macbride Allen. I have a soft spot for Han and Leia's family in general, though.

The Dark Force/Jedi Knight games are fantastic. I don't care how much of a Mary Sue Kyle Katarn might be, he's still awesome. (And arguably since he's a video game protagonist, that gives him the right.)

Generally speaking, though, the quality of much of the EU certainly isn't much better than fanfic. I made it a point to stay away from any single book; the trilogies tended to be better. Truce at Bakura wasn't too bad, but the rest get sillier and sillier.

[silenus]

I re-read the Thrawn trilogy + douology just last year, when I put them on my Kindle. They hold up just fine, especially compared to the crap Lucas has come up with since ESB.

[Skammer]

When the the Thrawn trilogy come out? I remember reading them a long time ago, and thinking they were decent. I didn't know anything about them when I picked them up so I guess I was just lucky that the only SW books I've ever read are generally considered some of the best.

[Bosstone]

Interestingly, 60,000 voters voted the Thrawn trilogy into the #88 spot on NPR's Top 100 Science Fiction/Fantasy list. So some folks at least thought it was good.

...Granted, given that RA Salvatore's Drizzt series came in at #73, maybe that list's credibility should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Some is garbage, some is very good.

Mostly, it's fun.

In the meantime, get yourself one of these--
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Mill...4965447&sr=1-1


You know you wanna.

[Love Rhombus]

Children of the Jedi by Barbara Hambly was quite good, I thought. Anyone else like it?

[Arabella Flynn]

It depends on what you're expecting.

If you want mind-blowing sci-fi, then very little of it will please you. There are some authors who write for the SWEU who also do critically acclaimed sci-fi outside of it, and their books are usually readable, occasionally great.

If you want something that will entertain you for a few hours, they're pretty fantastic. The X-Wing series takes Wedge Antilles and some other minor characters and drops them into decent serial space opera. They aren't deep literature, but they have their moments. The books about the main characters have more baggage to haul around, but some of them are also worth the few bucks it takes to buy them used. A lot of them rise to the level of "top of the pile of fanfic", basically.

This is coming from someone who has paid actual legal currency for far too many of these, not to mention the licensed Doctor Who novels and other similar money sinks. Don't expect a gourmet repast, but some of them are enjoyable junk food.

[shy guy]

I think that's a good point - a lot of it probably depends on how much you like novels based on similar properties. I have read truly heinous Buffy the Vampire Slayer novels and comics, and I usually find something to like about them.

I have to disagree with Bosstone on two points: First, I (re)read the Zahn trilogy fairly recently, and I think it holds up really well; it's a ton of fun. I actually think it comes off better than it used to in light of all the irredeemably horrible prequel junk. Like all EU stuff (Hell, like all Star Wars stuff), it's goofy as Hell, but that's a mark in its favor. Second, as awesome as a Star Wars book where Luke fights dinosaur aliens who are immune to the Force sounds, I think Truce at Bakura sucks.

[Measure for Measure]

Is any of it viable fodder for a movie, mini-series or even anime? Could it top Phantom Menace or the other 2 of the Vader Chronicles?

[Bosstone]

Originally Posted by shy guy

I have to disagree with Bosstone on two points: First, I (re)read the Zahn trilogy fairly recently, and I think it holds up really well; it's a ton of fun. I actually think it comes off better than it used to in light of all the irredeemably horrible prequel junk.

I never actually said it didn't hold up well, only that it's probably been so long we might just be remembering it from when we were young.

Originally Posted by Bosstone

I think everyone remembers Zahn fondly, but hasn't read that trilogy recently. Neither have I, and I remember it as being good for Star Wars fiction, but it's been 10+ years since I last read them.

[Max the Immortal]

Originally Posted by drastic_quench

Jeez, Mike has some Steve-Buscemi-level weird teeth. Does he have one massive tooth on his lower jaw that grows directly under his tongue? Sorry, I've never seen a video of him before.

I know, right? After a while you stop noticing it.

[magnusblitz]

Originally Posted by Measure for Measure

Is any of it viable fodder for a movie, mini-series or even anime? Could it top Phantom Menace ?

With a bar that low, I'm sure you could find something...

[Quimby]

Looking back, there are some good EU books. I did like the Han Solo trilogy (the more recent ones, I never read the ones from the early 80s) and Tales of the Mos Eisley Cantina and Jabba's palace were good. Still, there are probably hundreds of books out there and the misses far out number the hits.

I still also content the Zahn books are only just okay. I liked the later duology more than his original trilogy.

One thing Zahn should get credit for is Coruscant first appears in his novels. I am pretty sure he created it.

[nudgenudge]

Originally Posted by Ethilrist

First thought: Star Wars has joined the European Union? Lucas MUST BE STOPPED.

I'm glad to see that there is at least one person for whom the letters "EU" have some significance beyond fucking Star Wars.

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by nudgenudge

I'm glad to see that there is at least one person for whom the letters "EU" have some significance beyond fucking Star Wars.

Star Wars claimed the letters "EU" first though...

[Bosstone]

Originally Posted by nudgenudge

I'm glad to see that there is at least one person for whom the letters "EU" have some significance beyond fucking Star Wars.

Or that you guys can't recognize letters in context.

[Tapioca Dextrin]

Yoda Does Brussels is a movie I'd pay to see.

[Christopher Robin Davies]

Originally Posted by Miller

Man, it really depends. The EU covers a ton of stuff. To a sufficient volume that you can apply Sturgeon's Law to it, and still come up with a fair amount of good material.

The Old Republic stuff, for example, comes from the line of computer RPGs made by BioWare, and they're really first rate. The most recent title, a World of Warcraft style online game, does a really neat job of executing a complex, character-driven storyline in an MMO format, which I'd have sworn wasn't even possible.

I've also heard really good things about the animated Clone Wars TV series, but I haven't seen more than one episode myself. Unfortunately, that episode focused on Jar Jar pretending to be a Jedi, so I haven't seen any episodes since then. My friends assure me that the episode I saw was not representative of the series, but I'm uncertain how far I can trust them.

I've also read some comics that were pretty good, but the names escape me now.

I stopped reading the novels back in high school when they got too stupid, and from what I've heard of them since then, that was probably the right call.

While I do not like Star Wars in general I love the animated Clone Wars series currently being aired. The episodes focusing on clone troopers are particularly good. The ones that focus on Jar Jar are useful because they warn you not to waste DVR space on them.

[Beastly Rotter]

Originally Posted by Measure for Measure

Is any of it viable fodder for a movie, mini-series or even anime? Could it top Phantom Menace or the other 2 of the Vader Chronicles?

O, a movie of the original KotOR would rock socks. Much of it was what the Lucas prequels should have been, a galaxy-wide war against a ruthless faceless enemy, with the tide of defeat finally turned by a swashbuckling charismatic hero who bucked the Jedi Council and united a rag-tag army behind him to sweep all before him before a tragic fall from grace into villainy, before finally redeeming himself. Some familiar locations, some new ones, a band of bickering, misfit heroes and a splendid plot twist midway through. And a cynical, sarcastic assassin droid.

[Quimby]

I love the three cinematics that introduce SWTOR and the two factions. I would love to see them expanded into a film.

[Sarabellum1976]

I enjoyed quite a few of the New Jedi Order books, though they were written by a number of different authors, some better than others for sure. I haven't read any new ones since the NJO series finished - that storyline consisted of 19 books plus a number of novellas and short stories that went along with it. Vector Prime, the first novel in the series, got a bad reputation (because a beloved character from the films died) but was actually the best-written of the lot, IMO.

Truce at Bakura was kinda bad. The Timothy Zahn books are definitely some of the better ones. I did not like Children of the Jedi, but it was better than Planet of Twilight (?) that came right after it, good Og that was awful. Probably one of the worst SW books I have ever come across.

[Grumman]

Originally Posted by Sarabellum1976

I haven't read any new ones since the NJO series finished - that storyline consisted of 19 books plus a number of novellas and short stories that went along with it. Vector Prime, the first novel in the series, got a bad reputation (because a beloved character from the films died) but was actually the best-written of the lot, IMO.

There are two in the middle (Rebel Star and Rebel Dream, IIRC) that I'd recommend. There's a couple of spoilers:

SPOILER:

Coruscant has fallen, Chewbacca is dead,

but if you don't mind that, they're a good read on their own.

[Lasciel]

It's funny that you say that about the NJO series. I read Vector Prime, enjoyed it, and then swore I wouldn't read anything else set in that universe that was set chronologically after that, or was thematically similar.

It just wasn't Star Wars to me. The whole point of Star Wars (to me, anyway) was that it was light-hearted space opera. Even in the EU, you knew it wasn't ever going to get too bad.

The good guys would win, the bad guys would go down in flames, and there wouldn't be any terrible sacrifices by the good guys, because it would look terrible, and then something would swoop in at the last minute and save everyone.

I know that's pretty much a sanitized fairy tale, and that isn't "realistic" and it's certainly not the mark of good literature, but that was what Star Wars WAS to me - and with Vector Prime, they quite clearly announced that they were leaving that particular style and moving on. And I wasn't interested in moving that way with them.

I've heard lots of good things about that series, and I have lots of friends who think that it was anything from the best thing to happen to the EU to just another set of books set in the world, but I just couldn't deal with that shift over to dark and depressing. I like lighthearted reads - my own life is bad enough without reading depressing things happening to beloved childhood characters/icons.

Give me any of the Tales of... series, the Han Solo or Lando Calrissian sets, the Zahn books, or the Corellian trilogy (not good, but fun) or hell, even something sappy and fan-ficcy like I,Jedi before all that dark and gloomy stuff.

[Grumman]

Originally Posted by Lasciel

It's funny that you say that about the NJO series. I read Vector Prime, enjoyed it, and then swore I wouldn't read anything else set in that universe that was set chronologically after that, or was thematically similar.

The two I mentioned are set chronologically later, but I think they are in keeping with the themes you prefer, even if they mention the events of previous books that weren't.

[gonzoron]

Originally Posted by Max the Immortal

Relevant Penny Arcade 4th Panel (warning: NSFW language).

My god, that was hilarious! Even better than the comic it ended up with. Thank you!

"Plaugewies!"


I'm another "enjoyed the Thrawn books but hated everything else I read, then stopped" case. I think the problem I have with them, (aside from names like Darth Undead-u) is that the mood is all wrong. Everything is so darn depressing, and it seems to just get worse in the books I haven't read, from my Wookieepedia skimming. The OT was just so much fun 90% of the time (I mean, yeah TESB ended in a dark place, but aside from that). And ROTJ ends with a happy ending. But then so many of the books go in such a bleak direction.

I mean, I understand that you need conflict to make a story, and I don't expect everything to be Ewok celebrations and happy flowers. But

SPOILER:

The main characters all seem to be angst-filled... Chewie dead, 2/3 of the Solo kids dead (and one going to the dark side), Luke finally gets hitched to Mara Jade, and then she dies too. And then when all is said and done in a few generations, the New Republic is gone, the Empire's back, and the only Skywalker left is an ex-Jedi mercenary?

No thanks... (again, most of that's from skimming online summaries. I might be wrong on some details) I'd rather see my favorite characters having fun adventures. That's what I like about star wars. If I want bleak and dark, I'll watch BSG or B5 instead.

[Sarabellum1976]

Originally Posted by Grumman

There are two in the middle (Rebel Star and Rebel Dream, IIRC) that I'd recommend. There's a couple of spoilers:

SPOILER:

Coruscant has fallen, Chewbacca is dead,

but if you don't mind that, they're a good read on their own.

Yes, those two were definitely on the upper end of the quality scale for the NJO series.

One of the problems that I had with the series is that it just seemed so WRONG when the writers callously killed off

SPOILER:

Anakin Solo

who they had spent so many books building up to be the next great Jedi, best guy since sliced bread, and BAM, he's dead before he's even seventeen years old? WTF.

Honestly, I really thought the whole thing was a red herring, and that he would be brought back in a later novel, miraculously alive. It was hard to take the plotlines seriously when I was forever expecting the, "Voila! He's back!" big reveal that never happened.