What's the most challenging job to keep?

[robert_columbia]

There are plenty of resources on the Dope and off of it regarding the difficulty of getting certain jobs. What are the most difficult jobs to keep? E.g. do rocket scientists at major aerospace companies frequently find themselves one step from being fired for poor performance due to too many blowups or aborted launches? Do brain surgeons often end up on a "Performance Improvement Plan" due to being an ok brain surgeon but certainly not on the Top 100 Brain Surgeons of America list and thus "not a good fit" for a top-rated hospital? Are Baptist preachers one step away from the dole because they barely converted enough people last month? Are schoolteachers flying on the seat of their pants worried that if they don't reduce the number of failing students, they will be getting a pink slip?

[cher3]

If you mean jobs that are both difficult to get and difficult to keep, I would think that CEO's and high level sports coaches are right up there.

[Zsofia]

High pressure sales gigs where you're paid only on commission, I'd think - I mean, I suppose you can keep working if you're not selling cars, but you'll starve to death.

[Simplicio]

What's the average career of an NBA player? Googling, it looks like the average age for many of the teams are under 30.

In general, I suspect certain professional sports gigs are the hardest to keep, simply because a combination of the fact that their are very limited spots for a huge number of people that want to play and the fact that injuries and general aging will insure that a given player will be surpassed by a younger up-and-commer fairly quickly.

I imagine professional models and ballerinas and the like have similar problems.

(ETA: and for different reasons, the Al-Queda second in command position seems to have a lot of turn-over)

[Gatopescado]

Al-Qaeda #2

[msmith537]

I would say management consulting is one of the hardest jobs to keep. Firms like Mckinsey, Bain, Deloitte, Accenture, BCG and others tend to be extremely hard to get into in the first place, typically hiring top grads from short lists of top schools. Although they do hire more experienced "strategic hires" if you have a particular skill set or industry experience they need.

Once you are in, your value is based on how many "billable hours" you work, much like a lawyer. This is largely dependent on finding a match between your skills and experience and an available project working for a partner or manager who likes you. If you don't bill enough hours and spend enough time "on the beach" (not working on billable projects), you may find yourself "counselled out" (fired).

Consulting firms also typically have an informal or formal "up or out" policy where if it is decided you have reached your peak, they ask you to leave the firm.

And some people just quit after a year or two because they get sick of working 80-100 hours a week and living out of a suitcase sunday night through thursday.

Turnover can be as high as 25% or more, depending on how you define voluntary vs involuntary. Higher in a bad economy when clients are cutting services.

So basically, if you join a management consulting firm, expect that as many as a quarter of your colleagues will either get laid off or quit out of frustration in their first year.

[gotpasswords]

Anything where there's a steady ocean of applicants such as fast-food, retail sales clerks, etc. and the cost of onboarding and training is minimal can make for a hard-to-keep job.

[Randy Seltzer]

Acting.

Though there are actors who score major recurring roles in reliably steady productions, 99% of actors do only one-off gigs, and must be constantly on the lookout for new work. And consider that 100 people audition for each available role, so "keeping" your job (i.e. getting a new gig after your previous one ends) is pretty tough.

Might strain the definition of "keeping" though: it's usually understood when you're hired that you'll be laid off by the end of the afternoon.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by gotpasswords

Anything where there's a steady ocean of applicants such as fast-food, retail sales clerks, etc. and the cost of onboarding and training is minimal can make for a hard-to-keep job.

Are these examples of jobs that are hard to keep? They might be examples of jobs that are hard to keep people in.

[robert_columbia]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

Are these examples of jobs that are hard to keep? They might be examples of jobs that are hard to keep people in.

I'm specifically looking for jobs that are hard to keep even when the worker wants to stay. Basically, I'm talking about jobs where it is more common that a person who has already been hired is faced with rational stress over getting fired or where an above-average number of workers who have already been hired are fired. E.g. a job/industry/company where 50 people are hired in September only for half of them to be "fired for poor performance" by December, even if they still want to stay, when it was the intent of the company to really only keep 25 by firing the lowest performers. In many jobs, it's difficult to be fired for poor performance unless you do a really awful job - being mediocre or simply a below average producer simply means you will not get promoted (aka the Peter Principle).

I suppose the commission-only salesperson might fit based on a different interpretation of the question.

[robert_columbia]

Originally Posted by Randy Seltzer

Acting.

Though there are actors who score major recurring roles in reliably steady productions, 99% of actors do only one-off gigs, and must be constantly on the lookout for new work. And consider that 100 people audition for each available role, so "keeping" your job (i.e. getting a new gig after your previous one ends) is pretty tough.

Might strain the definition of "keeping" though: it's usually understood when you're hired that you'll be laid off by the end of the afternoon.

Neat idea, but it doesn't really match with my intent. The understanding from the beginning was that the job was only temporary. I'm talking about a worker who is hired on an "indefinite" basis, but where that worker must fight tooth and nail to keep from getting fired. E.g. they are hired in September and do ok for the first few months, then they make an embarassing error, miss a deadline or quota, or simply be rated as below average and are immediately fired.

E.g.:

Manager: "This auditor job requires you to produce. If you do not catch at least 10 errors or acts of fraud a month, you will be fired. There is no mercy and no building up 'Good points' in good months."

[Sarabellum1976]

Commission sales.

Professional athlete.

Musician/Songwriter.

[Mr. Excellent]

Politics can be hard. The vast majority of incumbents get re-elected, but they do need to invest lots of time and money in making that happen. I would be happy to serve in the United States Senate - but you would have to drag me, kicking and screaming, into the House. Two-year terms mean that campaigns more-or-less never end.

[Ethilrist]

Writer. Just because you sold one book or movie script, that doesn't mean you will ever sell another one. It increases your chances, but it is by no means a guarantee.

[TriPolar]

Kamikaze Pilot

[msmith537]

Originally Posted by TriPolar

Kamikaze Pilot

Actually, most of them keep their job their entire life.

[phreesh]

Originally Posted by msmith537

Actually, most of them keep their job their entire life.

Nice.

It's my understanding that a lot of the elite special forces jobs have a high 'washout' rate as they go through training. I've heard such things as "50 of you are here right now, in one month's time, there will be 5."

That could be hyperbole, however.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by msmith537

Actually, most of them keep their job their entire life.

Excellent follow up.

[msmith537]

Originally Posted by phreesh

Nice.

It's my understanding that a lot of the elite special forces jobs have a high 'washout' rate as they go through training. I've heard such things as "50 of you are here right now, in one month's time, there will be 5."

That could be hyperbole, however.

It's probably closer to 25-50% washout rate. Much higher than that and they should do a better job during the selection process. It's expensive training candidates who don't complete the training. But I believe part of special operations training is to also screen candidates who can't hack it.

I don't know if I would consider that their "job" or more like a 16 week interview process.

[robert_columbia]

Originally Posted by msmith537

It's probably closer to 25-50% washout rate. Much higher than that and they should do a better job during the selection process. It's expensive training candidates who don't complete the training. But I believe part of special operations training is to also screen candidates who can't hack it.

I don't know if I would consider that their "job" or more like a 16 week interview process.

Yes, this is more what I was looking for, basically a situation where making it through the interview is only the first step, for exampe a company treats the first six months leading up to the first performance appraisal as a second interview with the expectation that some significant portion of the new hires will be fired for poor performance, effectively meaning that they failed the six month "interview", or otherwise hiring more people than they expect to keep indefinitely, waiting until after hiring to weed out lower performers that might otherwise have been weeded out during the "regular" interview process.

[UncleRojelio]

Non-union electricians. According to a friend of mine, when it comes to roughing out houses, the mantra is "Three a day or on your way".

[Rigamarole]

Show runner on any network TV series. They are prone to getting cancelled or replaced in the blink of an eye. In fact, there was once a series that was cancelled before it even finished airing.

[Munch]

Originally Posted by Rigamarole

Show runner on any network TV series. They are prone to getting cancelled or replaced in the blink of an eye. In fact, there was once a series that was cancelled before it even finished airing.

What is a "show runner"?

[Jennyrosity]

I've got one for you - senior fundraiser for a major charity. Not the folks who stand on street corners hassling for your money, but the ones who look after major corporate and individual donors.

Generally, the charitable sector doesn't pay well, but competition for good fundraisers is stiff, so to have chance of recruiting you have to pay them well. Therefore because they are costing you more than 99% of their staff, you want a return on your investment pretty much straight away. If they're not bringing in cash by your 6 month probation meeting, chances are they're getting canned.

Not that the successful ones stick around much longer - generally after a year or so they'll move on to pastures new, for more money. It takes on average two years for a charity to make a profit from a senior fundraiser, especially as recruitment costs are usually also high, but the average length of service is a lot less than that.

Jennyrosity, HR Manager for a major UK charity.

[Ibanez]

Originally Posted by Gatopescado

Al-Qaeda #2

lol...

Leader of any democratic country is a pretty challenging job to keep.

[Rigamarole]

Originally Posted by Munch

What is a "show runner"?

Showrunner.

Originally Posted by Wiki

Showrunner (alternatively, but not commonly, show runner) is a term of art originating in the United States television industry referring to the person who is responsible for the day-to-day operation of a television series—although such persons generally are credited as an executive producer[1] or supervising producer. (This should not be confused with runners, who are the most junior members of the production team, though sometimes showrunners are referred to as 'runners' in shorthand.) The term is also occasionally applied to people in the television industries of other countries. Unlike films, where directors are typically in creative control of a production, in episodic television the showrunner usually outranks the director.[2]

Basically, the showrunner runs the show. Even though TV shows have directors for each episode, you could say the showrunner's power/influence is much closer to that of the director on a movie set. Famous examples would include Vince Gilligan on Breaking Bad, David Benioff on Game of Thrones, etc.

[Omar Little]

Typist for a highly educated charming quadraplegic.

[Enderw24]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

Typist for a highly educated charming quadraplegic.

Now now, Speech Plus has done wonders for Hawking.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Zsofia

High pressure sales gigs where you're paid only on commission, I'd think - I mean, I suppose you can keep working if you're not selling cars, but you'll starve to death.

You're right in general about commission-only jobs. But car sales is notoriously low-security. It's always "What have you done for me lately?"

I'm including the sales managers in that group, by the way. Little security, lots of pressure, lots of ulcers.

[Jennshark]

Associate professorship (tenure) in a humanities department at a highly-competitive university. Five to seven years and you're out, unless you've achieved publishing superstardom while managing to not piss off the tenured profs who vote on your tenure.

I've always thought that car sales would be a difficult job to persist in (due to dependence on commissions and the requirement to be slimy to make a living and/or endure rude buyers who think you are slimy (even if you're not).

[Wesley Clark]

The vast majority of porn actresses do one video and then drop out of the industry. So that is a field with a pretty low retention rate. If you are looking for fields with a more socially acceptable title, I would think some high finance jobs can be pretty stressful since you are constantly under pressure to make your numbers each quarter.

Also low paying service sector work, turnover can be 40-50% a year in those.

[Rigamarole]

Originally Posted by Wesley Clark

The vast majority of porn actresses do one video and then drop out of the industry.

Really? The vast majority? Just ONE? Out of curiosity - have you worked a porn, or do you have a source for that? (besides being a consumer of it, naturally)

Not trying to be a dick or anything, but I'm really curious if that's actually true.

[elmwood]

City managers tend to have short tenures. Firing comes with the territory, and many leave even when they might be in good standing, to fill the positions of others that were given the boot.

[Siam Sam]

How about US House representative? They have to campaign for reelection every two years. Even senators get something of a break.

[kunilou]

Originally Posted by robert_columbia

I'm specifically looking for jobs that are hard to keep even when the worker wants to stay. Basically, I'm talking about jobs where it is more common that a person who has already been hired is faced with rational stress over getting fired or where an above-average number of workers who have already been hired are fired. E.g. a job/industry/company where 50 people are hired in September only for half of them to be "fired for poor performance" by December, even if they still want to stay, when it was the intent of the company to really only keep 25 by firing the lowest performers. In many jobs, it's difficult to be fired for poor performance unless you do a really awful job - being mediocre or simply a below average producer simply means you will not get promoted (aka the Peter Principle).

I suppose the commission-only salesperson might fit based on a different interpretation of the question.

I've personally seen two low-rent jobs that are brutal in terms of survival.

Call centers, whether they're telemarketing or customer service typically have extremely high quotas for sales and/or call volume. You have to follow the script, and complete the call in X time. Pray that you don't call someone who stutters - that person can blow your average for the whole day.

When large retail stores open, they typically hire more staff than they'll eventually need. After a month or so when the "new" wears off they cut staff to a more sustainable level.

I'd estimate the odds of lasting more than a month at either job is probably less than 50% even if you don't screw up.

[msmith537]

Originally Posted by robert_columbia

Yes, this is more what I was looking for, basically a situation where making it through the interview is only the first step, for exampe a company treats the first six months leading up to the first performance appraisal as a second interview with the expectation that some significant portion of the new hires will be fired for poor performance, effectively meaning that they failed the six month "interview", or otherwise hiring more people than they expect to keep indefinitely, waiting until after hiring to weed out lower performers that might otherwise have been weeded out during the "regular" interview process.

The only job like that I can think of is a stockbroker like you see in the film Boiler Room. The company will typically hire a bunch of 'trainees' right out of school and pay them nothing for a few months until they pass the Series 7 exam. Then it's basically sink or swim trying to sell their own accounts. I went on an interview at one of those places when I was right out of school. The guy said about half the people you see on the floor won't be there in a 6-12 months.

[Animastryfe]

Originally Posted by Jennshark

Associate professorship (tenure) in a humanities department at a highly-competitive university. Five to seven years and you're out, unless you've achieved publishing superstardom while managing to not piss off the tenured profs who vote on your tenure.

I've always thought that car sales would be a difficult job to persist in (due to dependence on commissions and the requirement to be slimy to make a living and/or endure rude buyers who think you are slimy (even if you're not).

Did you mean assistant professorship? An associate professor already has tenure, at least in the US universities that I know of.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Moderate Republican politician

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi

Moderate Republican politician

That is not a job.

[Iggy]

Failure rate for 9-1-1 trainees can be 75%. If you successfully complete training the job stress is extreme. Calls are reviewed regularly and anything less than perfect is criticize. Retention rates can be pretty low as a result.