Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:09 PM
Cat Whisperer's Avatar
Cat Whisperer is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lethbridge, AB.
Posts: 49,119

How would you change the movie "Independence Day" from what it is to a good movie?


I love post-apocalyptic movies; I love movies that show earth-shattering events happening, and what happens during and after these events. I wanted to love "Independence Day," but it is just so fricking clichéd and hackneyed that I can hardly watch it (even though I do, every couple of years or so). I think I keep hoping that it will be better than I remember every time I watch it.

So, keeping the premise the same (vastly overpowering alien invasion strikes the earth unexpectedly), what would you change to make it a better movie?
__________________
"Your guilty consciences may make you vote Democratic, but secretly you all yearn for a Republican president to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king!"
- S. Bob
  #2  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:15 PM
boytyperanma is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Leominster MA
Posts: 5,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Whisperer View Post
I love post-apocalyptic movies; I love movies that show earth-shattering events happening, and what happens during and after these events. I wanted to love "Independence Day," but it is just so fricking clichéd and hackneyed that I can hardly watch it (even though I do, every couple of years or so). I think I keep hoping that it will be better than I remember every time I watch it.

So, keeping the premise the same (vastly overpowering alien invasion strikes the earth unexpectedly), what would you change to make it a better movie?
Take out will Smith and them using a Mac to do anything was completely unrealistic!
  #3  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:21 PM
BMalion is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 9,716
The movie is perfect, aside from the...

Oh never mind, it's perfect.
  #4  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:25 PM
friedo's Avatar
friedo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 24,429
Independence Day, like Die Hard, is the absolute best of its breed. Alien-invasion action/adventures don't get much better.

Of course, it's an inherently ridiculous genre, so the pinnacle of its achievement will necessarily be inherently ridiculous. And ID4 is that. And that's OK, because it's more fun than a pig in shit.
  #5  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:26 PM
Covered_In_Bees! is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,566
Needed more stripper scenes.
  #6  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:42 PM
Suburban Plankton's Avatar
Suburban Plankton is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 8,106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Whisperer View Post
I wanted to love "Independence Day," but it is just so fricking clichéd and hackneyed that I can hardly watch it (even though I do, every couple of years or so).
I think this sentence illustrates quite nicely the fact that nothing about this movie needs to be changed.
  #7  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:54 PM
PSXer is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 3,109
It is the greatest of the cliched hackneyed alien attack popcorn genre. why mess with perfection?
  #8  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:59 PM
DataZak is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 603

How would you change the movie "Independence Day" from what it is to a good movie?


Kill Boomer the dog.
  #9  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:59 PM
Maserschmidt's Avatar
Maserschmidt is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New England
Posts: 5,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Whisperer View Post
I wanted to love "Independence Day," but it is just so fricking clichéd and hackneyed that I can hardly watch it (even though I do, every couple of years or so).
Are you kidding? This movie wallows in cliches with the delight of a dog wriggling itself all over a dead fish. It marinates itself in cliches the way Bobby Flay soaks a strip steak in a bowl of fruity wine. Independence Day puts the lotion on its cliches, or else it gets the hose again.

For this reason it is one of the perfectest movies of all time.
  #10  
Old 07-03-2012, 11:03 PM
Pai325 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,644
Just don't get rid of Randy Quaid. By the end of the movie I'm laughing so hard I'm crying.
  #11  
Old 07-03-2012, 11:14 PM
J Cubed is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 607
Two hour loop of:
1) Will Smith and the alien after their dogfight
2) The White House blowing up
3) Bill Pullman's speech
4) Random Jeff Goldblum verbal tics
  #12  
Old 07-03-2012, 11:40 PM
Grrr!'s Avatar
Grrr! is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 16,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by friedo View Post
Independence Day, like Die Hard, is the absolute best of its breed. Alien-invasion action/adventures don't get much better.

Of course, it's an inherently ridiculous genre, so the pinnacle of its achievement will necessarily be inherently ridiculous. And ID4 is that. And that's OK, because it's more fun than a pig in shit.

Agree. This is like asking how would one chnge "Die Hard" to make it a more believable movie.

If you want believable, you're barking up the wrong tree Cat Whisperer

What's next? Do you want to color in the first 30 minutes of The Wizzard of Oz?

Heritic!!
  #13  
Old 07-03-2012, 11:57 PM
YogSothoth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,000
I'd insert the deleted scene where they actually explained the whole Mac thing. Its still unbelievable, but less so when the scene tells you that much of modern technology was taken from the Roswell ship. And actual nudity in the stripping scenes.
  #14  
Old 07-04-2012, 12:25 AM
Hedda Rosa is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 1,595
I love this movie. But maybe it's because I first saw it at a drive in and got a huge laugh at the scene where the drive in gets destroyed by remarking to my friends "How postmodern." I felt really goddam witty.

Anyway like people above I think this movie is perfect in its being exactly what it is. Dumb and Dumber has the same quality. If you don't ask anything more than it has to give it is a perfectly delightful, engaging, fun movie that will steal away a couple hours of your life on a Sunday afternoon. Really what more do you want?

Last edited by Hedda Rosa; 07-04-2012 at 12:26 AM.
  #15  
Old 07-04-2012, 12:41 AM
samclem is offline
Graphite is a great
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Akron, Ohio
Posts: 26,202
I use the word "hokey" to describe Independence Day.

I wouldn't use that word to describe any Die Hard movies.

Maybe just semantics.
  #16  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:18 AM
friedo's Avatar
friedo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 24,429
Come on. "Yippee ki-yay, motherfucker" is pretty damn hokey.
  #17  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:25 AM
Tim R. Mortiss's Avatar
Tim R. Mortiss is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Lincoln Park, Chicago
Posts: 7,157
Change the name of Will Smith's character. C'mon. Whoever heard of a black dude named "Steve"?

Other than that, it's an awesome movie and I wouldn't change a thing.
  #18  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:40 AM
JustinC is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Any
Posts: 1,928
I don't know if it could be bettered; it's everything I dislike in movies and I love it. Maybe more Bill Murray as it's been scientifically proven that adding Bill Murray makes a film 10% better.
  #19  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:42 AM
Sampiro is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 36,260
Find out bad country music kills the aliens. Andy have the aliens chase people saying "We come in peace!" while shooting at them.
  #20  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:54 AM
Tangent's Avatar
Tangent is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Cowtown
Posts: 9,960
Yeah, I was gonna say:

1. Remove disc from Independence Day DVD case, and throw it away.
2. Insert Mars Attacks! disc.
3. Ack! Ack!
  #21  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:55 AM
drewtwo99 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 8,757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sampiro View Post
Find out bad country music kills the aliens. Andy have the aliens chase people saying "We come in peace!" while shooting at them.
And have the president quote Meatloaf.
  #22  
Old 07-04-2012, 02:10 AM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 59,237
The day gets saved when the USS Iowa starts throwing 16" shells.
  #23  
Old 07-04-2012, 02:22 AM
friedo's Avatar
friedo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 24,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewtwo99 View Post
And have the president quote Meatloaf.
Have the president be Meat Loaf.
  #24  
Old 07-04-2012, 02:41 AM
Raguleader is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Kansas
Posts: 8,159
Martin Lawrence playing Will Smith's back seater, who ends up helping him drag he alien across the desert. Instead of Will Smith kicking the crap out of the unconcious alien, him and Martin end up getting in a bromance slap fight a la Bad Boys.

James Avery plays a tough-as-nails military retiree, perhaps the estranged uncle of Will Smith's character.

And of course, the commander of Area 51, Tommy Lee Jones.
  #25  
Old 07-04-2012, 02:45 AM
Raguleader is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Kansas
Posts: 8,159
A friend of mine suggests that Liam Neeson play an ambiguously badass guy whose daughter gets abducted by aliens.
  #26  
Old 07-04-2012, 03:10 AM
Boyo Jim is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 36,997
Add Nick Cage running around in a bear suit beating up little girls.
  #27  
Old 07-04-2012, 03:37 AM
standingwave is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,084
A realistic alien invasion movie?

1. Bad guys introduce a nasty bug into the atmosphere.
2. Bad guys wait for humans to go extinct.
3. Bad guys move into their new digs.
  #28  
Old 07-04-2012, 06:02 AM
biqu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: ubiquitous
Posts: 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim R. Mortiss View Post
Change the name of Will Smith's character. C'mon. Whoever heard of a black dude named "Steve"?
<continue hijack>There's a black dude named Steve who runs the bikram hot yoga studio just up the street from my apartment complex.</end hijack>

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
  #29  
Old 07-04-2012, 06:18 AM
Smapti is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 16,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by DataZak View Post
Kill Boomer the dog.
BOOMER WILL LIVE.
  #30  
Old 07-04-2012, 06:48 AM
Alka Seltzer is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,736
It could mainly be improved by replacing the script and cast, and vaporising the director.
  #31  
Old 07-04-2012, 08:04 AM
aruvqan is offline
Embracing the Suck
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Eastern Connecticut
Posts: 16,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedda Rosa View Post

Anyway like people above I think this movie is perfect in its being exactly what it is. Dumb and Dumber has the same quality. If you don't ask anything more than it has to give it is a perfectly delightful, engaging, fun movie that will steal away a couple hours of your life on a Sunday afternoon. Really what more do you want?
I class it as a 'popcorn flick' - entertainment that does not require any real thinking. I like it for the same reason people like Buckaroo Banzai, The Shining or any other movie that totally lacks any deep inner meaning whatsoever. When I sit down to watch a movie, I want entertainment, I do not want any deep inner meaning, I do not want any existential angst, I don't even want to worry about the environment. I want to kill a few hours being entertained.
  #32  
Old 07-04-2012, 08:12 AM
DigitalC is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 11,153
Nuking the mothership destroys the shields, no hacking.
  #33  
Old 07-04-2012, 10:26 AM
Evil Captor is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Lair
Posts: 20,890
Have the people at Area 51 be the ones who come up with the code to destroy the aliens command network. Of course, this would then invite questions as to why these militant and capable aliens have a network that can easily be hacked by relative techno primitives. To which one can only reply: "Welcome to Earth, motherfucker!" (Punch!)
  #34  
Old 07-04-2012, 11:54 AM
Nunzio Tavulari is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Randleman, NC
Posts: 1,375
Base it on a children's board game. I think "Uncle Wiggly" has yet to be adapted.
  #35  
Old 07-04-2012, 12:12 PM
BMalion is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 9,716
I am watching it now, very appropriate.
  #36  
Old 07-04-2012, 12:20 PM
Cat Whisperer's Avatar
Cat Whisperer is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lethbridge, AB.
Posts: 49,119
Okay, after watching the first two hours again last night, I have come up with these changes:
1. Will Smith - while I normally love this guy, he was all cocky and no charisma in this movie. Change his character to what he does so well - a cocky and charismatic guy.

2. Change the way the alien menace is handled. The deus ex machina they came up with was far too un-freaking-believable, even for this movie.

3. Take out the Will Smith punching the alien's armour and he passes out for three hours thing. Good grief. That's a helluva punch you got there.
  #37  
Old 07-04-2012, 12:37 PM
Leaffan's Avatar
Leaffan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 24,598
Use it as a coaster.
  #38  
Old 07-04-2012, 12:39 PM
needscoffee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 7,167
More Judd Hirsch.
  #39  
Old 07-04-2012, 12:39 PM
Ashley Pomeroy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: England.
Posts: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Whisperer View Post
I think I keep hoping that it will be better than I remember every time I watch it.
I couldn't really enjoy it when I saw it at the cinema because of a major plot issue. Not anything to do with the Macs, or the tonnes of metal crashing down on the heroes' heads. It's that for the first ninety per cent of the film the aliens are almost entirely invulnerable, on account of their magic force fields.

Which means that the aerial dogfights near the beginning were just pointless, because the aliens were invulnerable. Our missiles had no effect whatsoever. Because the aliens were invulnerable. I mean, the big space battle at the end of Return of the Jedi is exciting, because - although we know that the goodies are going to win - the fighting at least has purpose. Spaceships blow up, there's a certain amount of strategy, some of the good guys are killed, and so are some of the baddies. But if the villain and his soldiers and spaceships are utterly invincible what's the point? The action doesn't have any purpose. Unless the intention was to show a heroic but doomed last stand, but I never had the sense that the filmmakers were capable of emotional nuance.

The 1950s War of the Worlds had a similar problem. The soldiers are going to lose; the nuclear bomber is going to lose; the aliens are untouchable. The action sequences aren't really action sequences at all. They're literally action-packed in the sense that there are explosions and so forth; but there's a difference between e.g. the London marathon and a movie action sequence. They both have motion and dynamism, but the former is just a lot of sweaty people running for fun and glory whereas the latter has meaning and purpose and emotional resonance.

Yeah, Will Smith manages to down an alien fighter, but it's a total fluke. I would have shown at least some of the aerial action having an effect. Make it look as if we might just possibly win, until the aliens unleash their reinforcements. Have our side fight hard and push the aliens back a bit, even though we're doomed. As it stands we just lose, and lose again, and then we magic a solution out of a Macintosh and then we win. The story is fundamentally broken. A good action sequence should have a tense, edge-of-the-seat quality, not just one side repeatedly failing to scratch the other side and then losing. Imagine if the Ali-Foreman fight had consisted of Foreman punching Ali really hard over and over again, and then Ali just falls onto the mat and loses. That's basically Independence Day, except that in Independence Day Ali uses a Mac Powerbook to write a virus which he then implants into George Foreman's brain - via his nose - which causes Foreman's brain to shut down at which point Ali has to punch him in a very special place. And the poor ostrich died for nothing. That's called a mixed metaphor, it's one of the fundamental underpinnings of the Alan Partridge series.

All those people who enjoyed the film. They were wrong. Wrong to enjoy it. They should have disrespected it, by throwing popcorn at the screen. "Curse you", the audience should have said, "for your fundamental inability to grasp the basics of motivation and tension and so forth".

I mean, at least in Godzilla they established that the creature might have been hurt by missiles and so forth, even though we knew it wasn't going to get the chop until the end of the film.
  #40  
Old 07-04-2012, 12:57 PM
joebuck20 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,968
Quote:
Originally Posted by DataZak View Post
Kill Boomer the dog.
This, a million times over.

I can buy the notion of city sized spaceships. I can buy that they come crashing down with no major seismic repercussions. I can even buy the entire bit about the computer virus.

But the one thing that takes me out of the movie is that damn dog outrunning the giant fireball as it's literally nipping at his heels.

Last edited by joebuck20; 07-04-2012 at 12:58 PM.
  #41  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:27 PM
zamboniracer is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Above the Uecker seats.
Posts: 4,963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim R. Mortiss View Post
Change the name of Will Smith's character. C'mon. Whoever heard of a black dude named "Steve"?

Other than that, it's an awesome movie and I wouldn't change a thing.
Steve Harvey would like a word with you.
  #42  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:45 PM
Tangent's Avatar
Tangent is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Cowtown
Posts: 9,960
So would Steve Urkel.
  #43  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:47 PM
billfish678 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,681
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalC View Post
Nuking the mothership destroys the shields, no hacking.
This.

That is one of the big things that bugged me about this movie. The aliens are gonna fucking kill everybody on the planet. It's not just like they swung by to steal some skittles and are planing to leave shortly thereafter.

But ohhh NOES we can't use a few nukes because that would anger mother earth or sumptin. Fucking mother earth hippies.

At the very least, show a few nukes being used and they don't work for shit so it's on to plan B.

Or did they try a nuke? I forget. But they sure acted like using a nuke was like asking your mother to become a stripper to pay for the cable bill.

Last edited by billfish678; 07-04-2012 at 01:51 PM.
  #44  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:49 PM
Sampiro is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 36,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by needscoffee View Post
More Judd Hirsch.
And his character needs to be more Jewish. Sure he wears a yarmulke and speaks in an accent that would make Jackie Mason say "Come again?", but we don't even know if he's circumcised.

But meanwhile, you had to off poor Harvey Fierstein?
  #45  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:55 PM
markdash is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,976
Quote:
Originally Posted by aruvqan View Post
I class it as a 'popcorn flick' - entertainment that does not require any real thinking. I like it for the same reason people like Buckaroo Banzai, The Shining or any other movie that totally lacks any deep inner meaning whatsoever. When I sit down to watch a movie, I want entertainment, I do not want any deep inner meaning, I do not want any existential angst, I don't even want to worry about the environment. I want to kill a few hours being entertained.
I also enjoy popcorn films. Two of my favorite are The Rock and True Lies. However, I loathe ID4 with every fiber of my being.
  #46  
Old 07-04-2012, 02:12 PM
RikWriter is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: central Florida
Posts: 6,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by billfish678 View Post
This.

That is one of the big things that bugged me about this movie. The aliens are gonna fucking kill everybody on the planet. It's not just like they swung by to steal some skittles and are planing to leave shortly thereafter.

But ohhh NOES we can't use a few nukes because that would anger mother earth or sumptin. Fucking mother earth hippies.

At the very least, show a few nukes being used and they don't work for shit so it's on to plan B.

Or did they try a nuke? I forget. But they sure acted like using a nuke was like asking your mother to become a stripper to pay for the cable bill.
They did try a nuke on Houston, I believe, and it didn't work. But yes, they were way too Hollywood-sensitive-whiney about it. All of our major cities have been destroyed, who gives a fuck if you loose a few nukes?
  #47  
Old 07-04-2012, 02:25 PM
billfish678 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,681
Quote:
Originally Posted by RikWriter View Post
They did try a nuke on Houston, I believe, and it didn't work. But yes, they were way too Hollywood-sensitive-whiney about it. All of our major cities have been destroyed, who gives a fuck if you loose a few nukes?
Ahhh, it's starting to come back to me now. But like you said. Seriously, once major cities start getting vaporized and at the very least a few test nukes don't start flying moments later was just way to WTF? kinda peacenik hippy shit for me.
  #48  
Old 07-04-2012, 02:27 PM
teela brown is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Almost Silicon Valley
Posts: 9,591
More Brent Spiner in highwaters.
  #49  
Old 07-04-2012, 04:52 PM
Cat Whisperer's Avatar
Cat Whisperer is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lethbridge, AB.
Posts: 49,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley Pomeroy View Post
<snip>
All those people who enjoyed the film. They were wrong. Wrong to enjoy it. They should have disrespected it, by throwing popcorn at the screen. "Curse you", the audience should have said, "for your fundamental inability to grasp the basics of motivation and tension and so forth".

I mean, at least in Godzilla they established that the creature might have been hurt by missiles and so forth, even though we knew it wasn't going to get the chop until the end of the film.
Yes! Exactly! I have nothing against feel-good popcorn flicks, but there needs to be something going on that doesn't make me feel like they're insulting my intelligence for enjoying them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sampiro View Post
And his character needs to be more Jewish. Sure he wears a yarmulke and speaks in an accent that would make Jackie Mason say "Come again?", but we don't even know if he's circumcised.

But meanwhile, you had to off poor Harvey Fierstein?
Oh yeah, that was another thing I'd change - get rid of Harvey's character altogether. He contributed nothing except annoyance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teela brown View Post
More Brent Spiner in highwaters.
Well, sure, but that would make any movie better.

Last edited by Cat Whisperer; 07-04-2012 at 04:53 PM. Reason: Which "his" I meant.
  #50  
Old 07-04-2012, 05:51 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim R. Mortiss View Post
Change the name of Will Smith's character. C'mon. Whoever heard of a black dude named "Steve"?
In a perfect movie, our hero the hacker would get flown into position by Stevie Wonder.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:09 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017