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  #1  
Old 10-11-2012, 05:22 PM
MannyL MannyL is online now
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I got a red light ticket :-(

It's funny how our senses are different than reality. A few weeks ago I was in Brick NJ, coming up to an intersection that I knew had red light cameras

The light was green but as I neared the intersection I saw it turn yellow. I didn't feel that I had enough room to stop and I knew that as long as I was in the intersection when it was yellow I would not get a ticket.

I saw the camera flash but didn't worry. Today I have a nice letter from the Brick Police showing my violation. I can see I was over the stop line when it turned red but I can't see if I was over the stop line when it turned yellow.

I can't fight the ticket because if I do and I lose I have to pay more and I can't prove that it was yellow as I passed the stop line. One saving grace is this ticket is pointless. I mean there will be no points assigned because it's not considered a moving violation.

Last edited by twickster; 10-11-2012 at 05:32 PM.. Reason: removed link
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  #2  
Old 10-11-2012, 05:30 PM
Saint Cad Saint Cad is offline
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Depends on your jurisdiction but don't THEY need to prove you passed the limit line on the red and not the yellow?
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  #3  
Old 10-11-2012, 05:33 PM
twickster twickster is offline
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Mod note

Manny -- I removed your link since it had your name and address, license number, etc. I would recommend masking that information if you want to post this for some reason.
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  #4  
Old 10-11-2012, 05:34 PM
MannyL MannyL is online now
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Originally Posted by twickster View Post
Manny -- I removed your link since it had your name and address, license number, etc. I would recommend masking that information if you want to post this for some reason.
Hm I thought I edited that out
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  #5  
Old 10-11-2012, 05:36 PM
TriPolar TriPolar is offline
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Originally Posted by MannyL View Post
I can't fight the ticket because if I do and I lose I have to pay more and I can't prove that it was yellow as I passed the stop line. One saving grace is this ticket is pointless. I mean there will be no points assigned because it's not considered a moving violation.
Tell us more about this. Are you saying the fine increases if you contest it? That would be aside from court costs. Ain't that unconstitutional?
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  #6  
Old 10-11-2012, 05:36 PM
Lord Feldon Lord Feldon is offline
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Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
Depends on your jurisdiction but don't THEY need to prove you passed the limit line on the red and not the yellow?
It depends on how they have it set up. In my city, the "ticket" was just a threat to maybe someday sue you, so you didn't really have a whole lot of civil rights when you went in front of the police arbitrator to ask the city to revoke its threat to possibly sue you. Since you were voluntarily entering into their parallel system (it was perfectly legal to just throw the ticket away and wait for the summons to court, where you could supposedly be fined up to *gasp* $25 more), you had no privileges other than what they wanted you to have.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 10-11-2012 at 05:40 PM..
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  #7  
Old 10-11-2012, 05:49 PM
MannyL MannyL is online now
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Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
Tell us more about this. Are you saying the fine increases if you contest it? That would be aside from court costs. Ain't that unconstitutional?
Ok new image of the violation letter is here Twixter thanks for catching the part I failed to edit out

According to this site

Q. How much will a red light running ticket cost?

A. The fine for an uncontested ticket is $85.00. The fine is higher if contested.
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  #8  
Old 10-11-2012, 06:42 PM
Lord Feldon Lord Feldon is offline
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Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
Tell us more about this. Are you saying the fine increases if you contest it? That would be aside from court costs. Ain't that unconstitutional?
Why would the constitution require that people get the maximum fine when they plead guilty by mail? Isn't it basically a plea bargain?

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 10-11-2012 at 06:42 PM..
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  #9  
Old 10-11-2012, 06:47 PM
TriPolar TriPolar is offline
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Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
Why would the constitution require that people get the maximum fine when they plead guilty by mail? Isn't it basically a plea bargain?
That's what I'm thinking, that it's not more to go to trial, it's less to plead guilty. I thought there couldn't be a penalty for exercising your right to a trial, but that really wouldn't be this case. I'm sure the law is worded differently than that lawyer's web page.
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  #10  
Old 10-11-2012, 06:59 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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There is a link to along with the ticket. You can look at the video of your car going through the intersection as well as the still photo. Then come back and say if you violated it.
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  #11  
Old 10-11-2012, 07:01 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
Why would the constitution require that people get the maximum fine when they plead guilty by mail? Isn't it basically a plea bargain?
There is no plea bargain on NJ red light tickets. Basically because there is nothing lower to plea to. $85 is one of the lowest fines and there are no points.
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  #12  
Old 10-11-2012, 07:25 PM
MannyL MannyL is online now
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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
There is a link to along with the ticket. You can look at the video of your car going through the intersection as well as the still photo. Then come back and say if you violated it.
As I said it was my perception. I *should* have slowed down as soon at it turned yellow and not thought that I could make it through the yellow. I will be paying the fine before the due date because it could have been much more expensive.

Although I do feel that at the intersection in question you should be able to go right on red.
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  #13  
Old 10-12-2012, 07:17 AM
lost4life lost4life is online now
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So are you going to use the bogus defense?
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  #14  
Old 10-12-2012, 08:58 AM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by MannyL View Post
As I said it was my perception. I *should* have slowed down as soon at it turned yellow and not thought that I could make it through the yellow. I will be paying the fine before the due date because it could have been much more expensive.

Although I do feel that at the intersection in question you should be able to go right on red.

You were not clear if you actually ran the light or not. Did it turn red before you hit the stop line?

Be careful with the right on reds. Those cameras are unforgiving with rolling stops.

Last edited by Loach; 10-12-2012 at 08:59 AM..
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  #15  
Old 10-12-2012, 10:54 AM
Duckster Duckster is offline
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Hard to see the images clearly.

Does the traffic signal actually control the right turn lane, because I don't see a traffic signal there at all. I see a traffic signal control the left, straight-through lane.

On second look, looking at the Google image street view there is a traffic signal, along with a large sign stating , "No Turn On Red."

Pay the fine and take your lumps. You will not win.

Last edited by Duckster; 10-12-2012 at 10:56 AM..
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  #16  
Old 10-12-2012, 11:03 AM
Saint Cad Saint Cad is offline
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Maybe I'm just looking at the pictures wrong but it looks like he got flashed when the camera took a picture as the light turned red. I think the top pic shows that he was already over the limit line which is the purpose of the pic i.e. to see who is in the intersection already as the light changes. Either through error or desire for more $ the pic was interpreted as flashing him as crossing the line after the red.
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  #17  
Old 10-12-2012, 12:50 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
You were not clear if you actually ran the light or not. Did it turn red before you hit the stop line?

Be careful with the right on reds. Those cameras are unforgiving with rolling stops.
Looks to me like the picture was taken 0.4 seconds after the light turned red, if I'm reading the times up there correctly. It seems to me the OP blew the light, especially if the 41 under "speed" means 41 mph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckster View Post
Hard to see the images clearly.

Does the traffic signal actually control the right turn lane, because I don't see a traffic signal there at all. I see a traffic signal control the left, straight-through lane.

On second look, looking at the Google image street view there is a traffic signal, along with a large sign stating , "No Turn On Red."

Pay the fine and take your lumps. You will not win.
You probably won't win, but you never know. I challenged a red light ticket for my father where it was incontrovertible that he blew the red, yet somehow, much to my shock, they dismissed the ticket. (There was a sign there saying "no turn on red when pedestrians are present" that I used as an excuse, even though one must stop on a red, anyway, before taking a right turn. I mean, this wasn't just a subtle roll through the red--this was completely blown.) That said, in Illinois, they don't charge extra if you challenge, so there's no reason not to.
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  #18  
Old 10-12-2012, 04:39 PM
brad_d brad_d is offline
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
Looks to me like the picture was taken 0.4 seconds after the light turned red, if I'm reading the times up there correctly. It seems to me the OP blew the light, especially if the 41 under "speed" means 41 mph.
In 0.4 seconds a car moving at 41 mph will travel about 24 feet, by my calculations.

In California, the one thing they look at is where the car was when the light turned red. If you are past the limit line at that moment (the front of your car, I assume), then you're legally in the clear. If you're behind the line at that moment, then you have run the red light if you proceed on through. (This from the mouth of a Long Beach police officer I chatted with a the scene of an accident - relating to red-light-running - that I witnessed a few years ago.) I would imagine New Jersey uses a similar standard, but I do not know this for sure.

The OP's car looks to me to be pretty much astride the limit line at t-plus 0.4 seconds ("RTIME" of 000.4). If that's about 24 feet beyond where it was at the moment the light turned to red, they I'd say they've got him. But it's certainly worth clearing up whether I/we are interpreting those numbers correctly.
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  #19  
Old 10-12-2012, 05:41 PM
MannyL MannyL is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
You were not clear if you actually ran the light or not. Did it turn red before you hit the stop line?

Be careful with the right on reds. Those cameras are unforgiving with rolling stops.
After reviewing the video tape there is no way I can honestly say that the light was anything but red before I reached the stop line.

I can say the perception of my speed was that I could not safely stop after the light went from yellow to red so I had to continue through it. However if I had slowed when the light went yellow instead of trying to "make the light" I would have been able to stop in time.

I also consider the fine I have to pay small compared to what I would pay if I was stopped for the everyday "speeding" I do.

Speeding in "" because I am over the posted limit but not going faster than the cars around me.
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  #20  
Old 10-12-2012, 05:42 PM
Diamonds02 Diamonds02 is offline
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Drive in some mud or tint your license plate cover.
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  #21  
Old 10-12-2012, 05:53 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by MannyL View Post
After reviewing the video tape there is no way I can honestly say that the light was anything but red before I reached the stop line.

I can say the perception of my speed was that I could not safely stop after the light went from yellow to red so I had to continue through it. However if I had slowed when the light went yellow instead of trying to "make the light" I would have been able to stop in time.

I also consider the fine I have to pay small compared to what I would pay if I was stopped for the everyday "speeding" I do.

Speeding in "" because I am over the posted limit but not going faster than the cars around me.
In New Jersey all intersections which are going to have cameras have to be surveyed. The speed of vehicles has to be recorded. The timing of the yellow light must be long enough for vehicles going the speed of the 85th percentile to stop safely. They don't just go by the speed limit. So if 85% of the vehicles go 45 then the yellow light is timed for 45. Even if the speed limit is 35. There was a bit of a kerfluffle a little while ago when it was found that some of the lights around the state were not timed right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamonds02 View Post
Drive in some mud or tint your license plate cover.
We have a statute for that. 39:33-3. That will get you pulled over a lot more often than getting a red light camera ticket. Thanks for playing though.
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  #22  
Old 10-12-2012, 05:54 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyL View Post
After reviewing the video tape there is no way I can honestly say that the light was anything but red before I reached the stop line.

I can say the perception of my speed was that I could not safely stop after the light went from yellow to red so I had to continue through it. However if I had slowed when the light went yellow instead of trying to "make the light" I would have been able to stop in time.

I also consider the fine I have to pay small compared to what I would pay if I was stopped for the everyday "speeding" I do.

Speeding in "" because I am over the posted limit but not going faster than the cars around me.
Looking at the ticket some more, it says "Amber: 4.0". I assume that means the light was yellow for four seconds? If so, that should be plenty of time to stop. In Illinois, the law is 3 seconds. It's tricky, because in the city the yellows are short (3 seconds). In the suburbs, they last four to four-and-a-half seconds, usually. The difference is noticeable. Four seconds seems like an eternity to me, being used to the shorter Chicago timing.

Last edited by pulykamell; 10-12-2012 at 05:55 PM..
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  #23  
Old 10-12-2012, 06:48 PM
Richard Pearse Richard Pearse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyL View Post
After reviewing the video tape there is no way I can honestly say that the light was anything but red before I reached the stop line.

I can say the perception of my speed was that I could not safely stop after the light went from yellow to red so I had to continue through it. However if I had slowed when the light went yellow instead of trying to "make the light" I would have been able to stop in time.
It helps if you have already made your decision to stop or go before the light turns yellow. If I'm approaching a light that has been green for some time and I feel it's about due to change, I will constantly re-evaluate whether I will stop or go if it changes. Then if/when it does change, the decision is made and I just have to brake or do nothing, no time is wasted in making a decision.
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  #24  
Old 10-12-2012, 07:08 PM
suranyi suranyi is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
You were not clear if you actually ran the light or not. Did it turn red before you hit the stop line?

Be careful with the right on reds. Those cameras are unforgiving with rolling stops.
Tell me about it. A couple years ago my wife ended up with a $500 fine after she was caught by a camera for doing a rolling right on red.
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  #25  
Old 10-12-2012, 08:18 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by suranyi View Post
Tell me about it. A couple years ago my wife ended up with a $500 fine after she was caught by a camera for doing a rolling right on red.
Yikes. Where was that? They are unpopular enough around here and it's only $85 and no points.
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  #26  
Old 10-12-2012, 09:14 PM
Emtar KronJonDerSohn Emtar KronJonDerSohn is offline
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Here they screw you pretty bad on red light camera tickets. You can either pay the same fine you would if an officer ticketed you and get points on your license or you can pay about $200 to take an 8 hour safety class and not get any points.
The really awesome part? After paying the fine and taking the points you learn that you still have to pay for and attend the same class anyway.
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  #27  
Old 10-13-2012, 09:50 PM
suranyi suranyi is online now
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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
Yikes. Where was that? They are unpopular enough around here and it's only $85 and no points.
California -- San Francisco bay area. Here the basic fine itself is reasonable, but they add court costs and various other fees which ends up tripling it or even more. All traffic tickets are like that around here: They can't raise taxes but they can raise fees on tickets and they sure have. They don't even try to hide the fact that they are using the extra revenue as a funding source for the court system.

Eta:$85 is about what the cheapest parking ticket costs around here. No moving violation would be anywhere near that low.

Last edited by suranyi; 10-13-2012 at 09:54 PM..
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  #28  
Old 10-13-2012, 10:07 PM
Joey P Joey P is offline
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Originally Posted by Diamonds02 View Post
tint your license plate cover.
One of my employees picked up a set of those. I told him they were illegal in Wisconsin (or at least in Milwaukee). He said "Whatevs, I'll be fine" I tried a few more times to tell him they're illegal which resulted in a few iterations of "But they sell them at AutoZone"/"But I see them all the time on other cars" etc.

A few days later when I saw him next he told me he got pulled over TWICE inside of 24 hours for them. He took them off.
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  #29  
Old 10-13-2012, 11:39 PM
Seanette Seanette is offline
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Originally Posted by Diamonds02 View Post
Drive in some mud or tint your license plate cover.
Can't speak for the mud (except to agree with another poster who thinks that'll get you pulled over a lot), but I'm pretty sure I remember the Mythbusters busting those license plate covers as far as making life harder for a red light camera.
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