SCOTUS should preserve race-based AA because we are not created equal

Well-meaning social policy based on a faulty premise will backfire.

Here’s the faulty premise: Given equal opportunity, SIRE (Self-Identified Race/Ethnic) groups will perform about the same. Fisher v U Texas Austin is illustrative of the problem that institutions (and businesses) face if they do not use race as a stand-alone criterion. At every level of opportunity–[family income or parental education, for example](Standardized Tests: The Interpretation of Racial and Ethnic Gaps 3)–performance differences among SIRE groups are large and persistent, and always with the same rank order. Poor whites (and asians) will outperform poor blacks in quantitative disciplines by enormous margins, and the same will hold true for wealthy SIRE groups.*

Here’s the backfire: When “race” is removed as a stand-alone criterion, the best black candidates are lost if they came from relatively privileged backgrounds. And since higher ability correlates with income, what happens with the loss of a “race-alone” criterion is that the most qualified black candidates (who come from the most privileged backgrounds) would not be granted admission because they would be outperformed by whites and asians from the same socioeconomic peer group.

In two AA SDMB threads here and here,most of the discussion is based on a default assumption that University race-based AA is needed to include disadvantaged (black and hispanic) students. But this is not the problem Universities face. U of T Austin can get around that issue with its Top 8% rule.

The problem Universities face is that they need to ignore socioeconomic status in order to be assured of getting the top tier black candidates. If their best black candidates come from privileged backgrounds, a University needs to be able to accept them over poverty-stricken white and asian candidates, and the only way to do this is to ignore all factors except race. That is, race alone becomes a “proficiency” test which, if passed, garners admission.

For a number of years I sat on a Medical School Admissions Committee, and the mechanism by which we made sure we extended opportunity to black candidates was to consider their applications entirely separate from all others. If we wanted (and we did) to have a SIRE-diverse class, we had to consider race as a stand-alone criterion. How else to handle the markedly lower scores of blacks who had had equivalent educational opportunity for the prior four years? How else to offer admission to a black professional’s daughter who, although her scores and grades might be marginal compared with white or asian peers, might still be able to become a decent physician with some extra help?

I am concerned that the default assumption that all SIRE groups will perform equally when exposed to the same level of opportunity will slowly drive our society back to one which is generally tiered the way it always has been. When the default assumption is that all SIRE groups have about the same basic potential, the default expectation is that equalizing opportunity will smooth out SIRE-based tiering. This is as faulty a premise in academics as it would be for the NBA. The current attacks on race-based AA use this faulty premise to argue against the only remedy for SIRE-based tiering: race as a stand-alone criterion for admission (or job) consideration.

No one wants to go public at the SCOTUS (or any other) level with any data showing that disparate outcomes remain even when opportunity is normalized. Anyone doing so would be sound-bit into an unemployed “racist” the following day. Yet we have found ways to include women as firefighters without falling apart or demonizing them. We are made differently; as groups we have access to different gene pools, and as along as we insist on self-describing into the current SIRE groups, average outcomes will reflect those differences. Big deal.

We should leave the race-baiting where it usually resides: the lowest intellectual tiers of all groups. If we want to build a better society, we should make accommodations for all and race-based affirmative action policies are the only way to prevent tiering of society into SIRE-based haves and have-nots.
*For those not inclined to click through links to get to the pithy summary:

“Black children from the wealthiest families have mean SAT scores lower than white children from families below the poverty line.
Black children of parents with graduate degrees have lower SAT scores than white children of parents with a high-school diploma or less.”

Your argument hinges on the assumption that having a racially diverse student body is more important than having a class selected by academic merit. Why is this?

This is a bit of a dodge, but I agree with this statement. Why is diversity rated a higher priority than merit?

May I assume “merit” is a combination of quantifiables such as grades plus standardized exam scores, along with measures such as leadership potential, volunteer activity, external accomplishments, and so on…?

In such a schema, at every level of socioeconomic status, blacks and hispanics would be disproportionately underrepresented. Just as importantly, many of the very best black/hispanic applicants would not have any chance at all, since these often come from the most socioeconomically advantaged black households. Even in those groups, as I’ve pointed out in the OP, there is a substantial underperformance in the SIRE groups of black and hispanic candidates.

This is exactly the dilemma that Universities face, and why they are so protective of a race-based AA criterion. They might be able to dredge up enough candidates in the economically disadvantaged category, but they’d have to refuse to offer admission to the black or hispanic candidates who did not have any quantifiable nurturing disadvantage other than being black or hispanic. The candidates from the lowest economic tier are much weaker candidates, relatively speaking, on average.

As to the overall good of SIRE-based diversity…I hold that as a given. As humans we self-identify with SIRE groups, for good or bad. I think it’s probably an atavistic holdover from our days in the Clan. Heterogeneous societies where the same SIRE groups are always at the top or bottom have a pervasive sense of unfairness that I think is destabilizing. That mother nature herself is fundamentally unfair is not much consolation. I hold that we should protect all groups to some extent in the same way that we might accommodate women or accommodate the physically disabled, even if there is no driver for us to do that other than a sense of well-being for our society.

That’s because there’s not any data that shows disparate outcomes remain when opportunity is normalized. This is because showing that opportunity is normalized is a monumental task- it’s possible to varying degrees to rule out certain factors- like income level, local transportation, health, nutrition, local crime, etc., but how is it possible to normalize things like emotional stability of the mother during the pregnancy, or parental encouragement, or the effect of media role models, or a million other non-quantifiable things? Indeed, “opportunity” is a rather nebulous concept- how can it be quantified?

And while disparate outcomes still exist, by some measures they are shrinking. Why should we give up on trying to close the gap, when we’ve only been making any efforts to close the gap for a few decades after centuries of violent oppression?

That’s not much of a debating point.

What years were those, exactly? It’s already illegal to consider race as a standalone criterion. It can be considered only as one factor of a general policy of encouraging diversity.

To me, the fundamental issue comes down to this; why do some groups statistically fall behind other groups? (Ignore for the moment the reality that these groups are composed of individuals who span a range of abilities.) As I see it, there are two possible answers.

The first possibility is the members of the first group have an inherent difference from the members of the other groups - something genetic or the equivalent. If this is the case then this difference will always exist. You can’t eliminate it anymore than you can turn a cat into a dog by calling it Fido.

The second possibility is that there is no inherent difference. Any observed difference is just circumstantial. There’s no reason why the difference has to exist and if it’s a problem than it can be fixed and the difference can be eliminated.

In general, I support the second possibility. I believe human beings are generally equal and there is no race which is inherently smarter or dumber than other races. If a difference is found in academic performance, I believe it is a circumstantial problem and therefore I believe it’s a problem that can be fixed. If we’ve been working on solving the problem but we find it still exists, that just means we haven’t done enough to solve it or perhaps we need a different solution.

I don’t believe it means we should just accept the problem and stop trying to solve it. I feel it would not only be unjust to the members of the group that’s falling behind to let them fall behind. I think it would also be unjust to all of us to deny ourselves the abilities that those people are capable of.

It was before the Michigan case (and before Bakke, for that matter). However it’s sort of child’s play for an admission committee to consider race anyway, and as an informal standard, they still do. You just take into account all of the subjective items for the black kid and weight them more heavily for the kid you want to get in. For example, there isn’t a number you can attach to “leadership” so if you are advancing a particular candidate for admission, you’re more impressed with his leadership activities than the next kid over.

With the exception of the occasional Fisher or Bakke, no one really has a stomach for challenging this approach.

The disparate scores for medical school matriculants are still present though; you can see them here. So although the “one factor of a general policy of encouraging diversity” may be true on paper, in practice, it really is just race we use. The rest of diversity is pretty much lip service. A University would not consider an all-asian class from varied socioeconomic levels as “diverse.” That’s why Universities are so concerned about removing race (or, in the words of Justice Sotomayor, “gutting” the current guidelines). I think it’s reasonable to say that all those under-scoring applicants didn’t get in because their non-quantitated criteria were somehow spectacularly above average, and enough to offset their lower quantitated scores.

But to tell someone their application has been denied, in favor of someone less qualified, is fair? Doesn’t sound very fair to me. What kind of world are you creating then? A heterogeneous society where everyone of a certain race is a “token pity hire” just to make the mobs happy, regardless of their actual qualifications?

From a practical point of view, as a patient, I would like my doctor to be the most qualified person to perform his job, and not someone who was less qualified but allowed into the school out of pity.

It may be impossible to rule out everything, but the factors you mentioned–and any others I can think of–have been “ruled out” unless you think that wealthy, well-educated blacks live in more crime-ridden, unsanitary, poorly fed, etc conditions than do poverty-stricken whites from uneducated families.

I do not think we should give up on trying to close the gap. Nor do I think we should give up on giving a helping hand to under-represented SIRE groups, which is the point of my OP.

Anti race-based AA groups are arguing that socioeconomic status should be the primary consideration instead of race, because SES is a better measure of opportunity. See this Fisher v UT Austin amicus curiae brief, p 22, e.g. But the problem is that SES consideration instead of pure race will hurt black admissions, because the improved opportunity offered by higher SES does not offset the underperformance of black and hispanic SIRE groups.

While you may personally feel “opportunity” is not normalized by wealth or parental education (or the other factors you mentioned), there’s a default assumption by the anti race-based AA groups that it is. I think that’s based on the fact that no one’s come up with really good other explanations. Do you have some?

Well, first of all, there is some legitimacy to an argument that a “test-taking” ability is not the only criterion to ever be considered. This doesn’t really help us with admission or hiring guidelines, because neither is there any evidence that non-quantifiable but important characteristics are somehow possessed by less academically qualified groups to a greater extent than highly academically qualified groups.

But I take issue with describing the motivation as pity and the admission as a token one. Yes, it is true that a black lawyer or black physician–on average–had substantially lower quantifiable test scores all the way through school. I’m not sure that makes them tokens anymore than female firefighters are tokens…

One of the hard lessons of being on an admissions committee is that it’s never “fair” and that everyone’s idea of who is most qualified is quite different.

When a student body is racially diverse, its members are exposed to persons of differnt backgrounds and viewpoints. This helps them to learn to appreciate other cultures, to be better able to judge the strengths & weaknesses of their own culture. The purpose of college is to educate, not to reinforce old beliefs & habits. A monochromatic student body does this less well than a diverse one.

Incidentally, I would say this is also true of all- or overwhelmingly-black colleges, though of course there were historical reasons making those necessary.

[QUOTE=CP]
It was before the Michigan case (and before Bakke, for that matter). However it’s sort of child’s play for an admission committee to consider race anyway, and as an informal standard, they still do. You just take into account all of the subjective items for the black kid and weight them more heavily for the kid you want to get in. For example, there isn’t a number you can attach to “leadership” so if you are advancing a particular candidate for admission, you’re more impressed with his leadership activities than the next kid over.
[/QUOTE]

Assuming that’s the case, what is SCOTUS supposed to do about it? Schools will just find another metric to use in place of race.

From a practical point of view, we have far too few medical schools so it doesn’t really matter if a slightly less qualified candidate is being admitted.

The study you cite sorts by income, not by wealth- these are obviously two very different factors. It also tops out at $70K (which is odd to me). I’d be very interested to see a study about IQ related to overall wealth rather than income- and also correcting for single parent vs two parent households, parental education level, etc. That wouldn’t settle it (the only thing that settles the genetic argument is genetic evidence), but it would go further than you have now.

But this thread seems to be more about Affirmative Action- I hijacked it a bit because I strongly disagree with the part of your premise that some racial groups are inherently dumber than others.

Because “merit” is heritable. If you grow up in a house with a lot of books, you will likely have better grades than someone growing up in a house with little to read. The heritability of merit implies a durable underclass, which, once established, is much harder to eliminate. The whole point, in fact, is to eliminate the underclass that is observed today.

A “caste system” is one of the worst possible things to exist in a democracy.

(On the medical school front, I might say that your “slightly” is the next guy’s “huge.” Right now the differences that are necessary are not trivial; a white or asian applicant with scores that would allow a black to be matriculated would not even make the potential consideration list…that’s precisely why special consideration needs to be given to the criterion of race, alone. And remember, those applicants have had similar schooling for the prior four years, so the “disadvantaged opportunity” argument is further diminished.)

As to what SCOTUS should do: Bite the bullet and make it clear that race-based AA is OK. Race-based quotas are OK. It’s OK for schools to decide for themselves whether or not, and to what extent, they should create quotas for SIRE group X. Stop dinking around with some nebulous bs about “diversity” when what they really mean is proportional representation by SIRE group.

Such an approach would let a school freely and openly compete for the best minority students without consideration of that student’s level of opportunity. This is what schools and employers really want, and the layer of complexity that has been added by pretending that we are after some sort of “diversity” other than SIRE groups is unwieldy and unmanageable.

That study was from 1995, when 70K+ meant more than it does now. While I agree with your point that income is not wealth (I have tried to persuade the IRS of this multiple times :wink: ), it does correlate reasonably well with access to whatever opportunity it is that money buys. After 1996 the SAT College Board stopped disaggregating this sort of data. That was probably a wise choice; they were already in hot water about whether or not their test was hurting minority candidates, and adding data points which further hurt them was probably not very helpful to their future.

The study for parental education levels is in my OP and in that income link. As it turns out, black students from families where the parents have graduate level education score slightly below white students where the parents have high school or lower educational levels.

There are many many other studies and correlations–you might look through some of the amici curiae briefs in Fisher for some additional detail as well. I am pretty sure you’d find anecdotally from any admissions officer at any higher level institution that there’s a real problem. It’s not just some 1995 SAT study. For example, one of the dilemmas we have in medical training is that if we use med school scores to help screen applicants for residency positions, it substantially hurts the black applicant’s chances of even getting an interview for a residency program (see here, for instance. Remember that these students at this point have had an antecedent 6 years of essentially the same curriculum at the point they are taking the USMLE Step One.

The only way in this example to get a proportionate SIRE representation is to use race alone as a proficiency characteristic, and ignore any softer measures for “opportunity.” Similar dilemmas exist across every admission/hiring situation.

Well, I didn’t see that coming.

Nor did I?

I was wondering when we’d have another thread extolling “Scientific” racism.

I was hoping the scientific racists had decided to take a breather after New Deal Democrat’s departure, but I guess it had to end.