Crossing your legs -- offensive?

In My Humble Opinion
1

Once upon a time, I hopped on a Cincinnati Metro bus to ride to law school, like I did most every day when I wasn’t risking life and limb to ride my bike. The bus was empty and I’ve got great big gangly ol’ legs that are never really entirely comfortable no matter what I do with them, so I cross my legs–ankle on knee, foot out in the aisle a bit. A woman in another seat, probably ten feet away or more, becomes visibly agitated and tells me to put my foot down. Bemused, I ask why. She says, “Because it’s DIRTY!” Did I mention that this woman did not appear to be entirely in her right mind? Anyway, I patiently explained that while my foot might or might not be dirty, it was also ten feet away and posed her no threat. This was not satisfactory for her. I kept my legs crossed, she sat and fumed, shooting me the hairy eyeball until she got off the bus. Weird.

Cut to New York, present day. I get on a subway, heading down to the Sunday NYC Hash House Harriers run. It’s a bit crowded when I get on, but it opens up after a stop or two and I sit down. Legs are still legs, and I cross them again. There’s an older gentleman a couple seats down, with somebody sitting between us. Very respectable looking, neatly trimmed grey beard and all. He starts giving me the hairy eyeball around the dude in between. The guy in between gets off at the next stop, and older gent leans over and asks me to put my foot down. Both a) baffled and b) suddenly remembering the crazy lady from Cincy, I ask why. He says, “Because it’s offensive.” Bemused, I explain that while I’m sorry, I certainly don’t mean him any harm and I fail to see how this could possibly be offensive. He “explains” that when I cross my legs like that, it’s a very offensive gesture. I say again that I’m very sorry, and I really don’t mean to give him any offense… He asks where I’m from. I tell him Cincinnati,* and he replies that this explains it: They clearly did not teach me right, and he is doing me the service of explaining to me that crossing my legs is very offensive and I will not do so in the future. Somewhere between bemused, amused, and incredulous, I again say that I’m sorry, but… anyway, this goes on, him getting ever more agitated, until he storms off several stops later.**

My questions are these: Have you ever encountered this reaction to having your legs crossed? Are you offended by the crossing of the legs? Is it a cultural thing? Old gent seemed to be your normal white Anglo-American–no discernable foreign accent. I wrote the whole thing off when it was just a crazy lady, but now I’ve got an otherwise normal-seeming older gentleman whom I apparently offended right off the subway. I try in my life not to be a jerk, so I’d hate to think that I’m offending untold dozens every time I take the train home.

  • Later, when I was thinking about this, I realized that this actually was offensive, as he was basically saying my mama didn’t raise me right. WTF.

** I’m aware that at some point in this exchange I probably crossed the line from innocent to jerk–that I should’ve just shrugged, uncrossed my legs, and waited for the weird old guy to get off. If the situation happens again, I’ll probably do that. But it’s not what I’m interested in in this thread. Pit me if you want–though I’ll just agree with you, so it’ll be sort of dull–or start a separate thread about the unintentional giving of offense through what ought to be innocent actions, like wearing a hat indoors.

2

In some cultures showing the bottom of your shoe is an extreme insult.

It would only bother me if I had to walk past you and brush up against the bottom of your shoe.

3

It is considered offensive in some cultures, but as I understand those are mostly Middle Eastern cultures. Were either of these people not American?

I could see older people thinking it’s a little off, but my view is always that if someone offends me, which usually takes very serious effort on their part anyway, if they aren’t doing it on purpose, I’ll let it go. In your case, I’d just have explained I meant no offense and let it alone. By continuing to engage them and then refuse to budge, it made you look like a jerk.

4

Never heard of this one–at least not among non-Asians. I’m still trying to get my head around the fact that some people consider it offensive to use a finger to point.

“No, you–I meant you, the one in the red sweater.”

“How DARE you?”

“Uh, what?”

“You pointed me out!”

“Sure, I wanted you to know who I meant, and I don’t know your name.”

“It’s an insult to point at another person!”

“Really? Why?”

“Don’t play dumb! Everybody knows that!”

Later met an Immigration Judge who was furious because I raised my index finger to accompany the words “My first point is…” Claimed it was disrespectful. I said “Your Honor, perhaps you thought I was using my middle finger? I was using my first finger, my pointer finger. But if you’re offended, then please accept my apologies, I certianly did not intend to upset you.” (While thinking, WTF?)

Also, after I moved from the Midwest to the East Coast, was the first time I saw a mother “petting” her extended forefinger at her child, to mean “Naughty!”

So, anybody else know where this sensitivity to using your finger to point at things or people comes from?

5

Are you a man or a woman? The only thing I can think of is someone thinking that posture was ‘‘un-ladylike.’’ Otherwise I’ve got no freakin’ clue.

6

As I mentioned in the OP, the older gentleman seemed to be bog-standard Anglo/European-heritage American–no accent, “Caucasian” skin tone and features. It’s been probably something like five years since I saw the Cincy lady, but I don’t recall her being anything other than a crazy white lady. :slight_smile:

And yeah, I don’t dispute that I could’ve handled it better.

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
Are you a man or a woman? The only thing I can think of is someone thinking that posture was ‘‘un-ladylike.’’ Otherwise I’ve got no freakin’ clue.
[/QUOTE]

I’m a guy. Someone else I mentioned this to asked if my junk might’ve been hanging out, which actually would have been a possibility if I were just wearing running shorts :D, but I had thermal tights on under my shorts, so no chance of that.

I think this is a Russian thing too–at least, I read that somewhere before going there, and so always used my whole arm to point. I still do, sometimes–habits form easily. In the Russian case I think it’s some sort of “evil eye” superstition, but I’m not entirely sure.

Surprised you’d not seen the finger-waggle before–I’m from Ohio, and it’s all manner of normal there.

7

I think Clinton (Bill) started using his thumb to make “a point” when people though his pointing the finger was rude. If you are wearing shorts, I can see how old people would think crossing your legs was rude. I don’t feel that way at all, and I think they need to get better hobbies.

8

If you wear a skirt/kilt and cross your legs ankle on knee, you may expose your underwear or worse. It could be thought of as immodest for that reason. That’s probably why some people may have the expectation that women shouldn’t cross their legs this. This way of crossing your legs also comes across as more masculine.

If you cross your legs knee over knee there isn’t an issue of immodesty. This way of crossing your legs comes across as more feminine, and is probably a bit less comfortable for men.

9

It is rude to show the bottom of the foot in Russia. I knew this going in, but forgot, because my default sitting position is one leg folded beneath me. I got swatted for it by an old lady in a museum who was obviously trying to keep me from behaving like the uncouth foreigner that I was. Well, and to keep me from offending the other patrons, I suppose.

10

Were you wearing running shorts? Because crossing your legs with those on could leave too little to the imagination for some people’s taste.

I frequently see people crossing their legs like that and do it myself. I have never been told it is offensive or heard of anyone else being told so.

11

Sometimes sitting like that, like sitting with your legs extremely far apart, shows a bit of…uhm…bulge. So maybe it was that. Maybe your trousers were tight?

Or just that sitting like that is generally thought of as somewhat inappropriate. I mean, I think it’s fine on public transport, but you probably wouldn’t do it if you were having tea with the Queen. It just seems in among the list of possible things that would incite your mother to say: “sit properly!”

I doubt the people you mention had a problem with the bottom of your shoe.

12

I was kind of getting a kick out of all the concern for LawMonkey’s nards, but at this point four posters have ignored the OP’s assurance that decency wasn’t the issue. Asked a Polish friend, she said sitting in such a relaxed posture in public indicates disrespect, but was never told why.

13

I think many people need to get a life. How tiny is your world if this is what gets you riled up?

14

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority, they show disrespect to their elders… They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their
legs, and are tyrants over their teachers.”

  • Socrates, quoted by Aristotle

Which was a long time ago. More recently, women were trained to only cross their legs at the ankle, and, while exiting a vehicle, to never splay one foot out and then the other, but to keep both feet together and swivel on their butts.

15

I’m from a long line of proper prudes. I’m fairly certain the posture would have been considered far too casual and even intimate - in that your crotch was open to view (clothed or unclothed it still puts it front and centre). My grandmother (British) would have said it was the kind of thing you can do in your own home but not in public, and preferably not in the presence of women. The age of the man on the subway is important here I think. It’s just not proper.

Now my husband thinks I’m nuts and sees no problem whatsoever with it. I have never instructed our sons not to sit that way. If I think back a generation or two, however - I can hear those folks saying to sit up straight, feet flat on the floor. I was taught the ankle over ankle cross and the swivel out of a car thing, if I was wearing a dress. And other ridiculous affectations, but I won’t report them all here :stuck_out_tongue:

16

I could imagine that you occupied more space than needed, but other than that I wouldn’t be bothered. Anyway, just in case go get yourself a Down-Down.

17

“Down-Down”?

Seriously, if everything was covered that should have been in a public place, OP wasn’t taking up more than his fair share of space, and no involved party was from a culture where the bottom of the foot is considered offensive (I want to say that’s common in Arab countries, but freely admit I could be wrong), I fail to see what either scold thought the problem was.

18

It’s a code-word among the Hash House Harriers, which LawMonkey wrote he is a member of.

19

It’s not an issue of his crotch, they specifically mentioned the bottom of his shoe. Yes, it is offensive in some cultures. I understand that it means "I consider you to be lower than the bottom of my shoe.

Yes, it seems weird to many of us, but in a lot of western culture it’s not considered rude to extend any combination of fingers except one. That seems just as arbitrary.

20

Yep. When I did my training for the Pan-Am Games, we were taught to ‘point’ with our whole hand.