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  #1  
Old 06-05-2013, 05:10 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Tolkien fanboys attack! New female elf

So here is a first look at a new major female character not it any of the books that will be in the next movie.

Are you all getting a case of the vapors?
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  #2  
Old 06-05-2013, 05:50 PM
Push You Down Push You Down is offline
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...this is kind of old news. They already released her action figure.
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:56 PM
Skald the Rhymer Skald the Rhymer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
So here is a first look at a new major female character not it any of the books that will be in the next movie.

Are you all getting a case of the vapors?
I didn't see THE HOBBIT in theaters, as I had enough evidence from THE RETURN OF KING and THE LOVELY BONES to know that TH would simply annoy me, and seeing it on Blu-Ray verified my judgment. I clicked the link hoping for some Evangeline Lilly hotness display but wasn't moved.

Anyway, I simply won't see the movie. I know think that FELLOWSHIP and BEAUTIFUL CREATURES were abberations; Jackson's taste in movies doesn't match mine.
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:58 PM
standingwave standingwave is offline
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Originally Posted by Push You Down View Post
...this is kind of old news. They already released her action figure.
Yeah, I heard about this months ago. I have a love/hate relationship with Jackson's Middle Earth films but they seem to embrace the spirit of the films more or less and that's good enough for me. The books will still be there after all.
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  #5  
Old 06-05-2013, 06:04 PM
Lasciel Lasciel is offline
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Meh, she's been around for a while.

I'm a little weirded out by the technicolor orange hair - I was of the impression that elves got either blonde or black/brown.

I will say that if the Professor had been a bit more inclusive of women in his staggeringly epic world in the FIRST place, then things like this (and the oft-parodied Arwen Warrior Princess issue from LoTR) wouldn't be necessary, but it's a little hard to knock him for it too seriously, as he was a product of his time. (And he created Eowyn, who is bad-ass enough to make up for a half-dozen Wheel of Time women all on her own.)
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  #6  
Old 06-05-2013, 06:21 PM
lisiate lisiate is offline
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Judging by the interview it sounds awful:

Quote:
Director Peter Jackson and his co-writers on the Hobbit trilogy, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens, invented the character to expand the world of the elves of Mirkwood Forest — and to bring some more female energy to the otherwise male-dominated Hobbit narrative.
After all, Jackson, Walsh and Boyen's additions made the Rings films sooo much better.

Quote:
Tauriel isn’t only a fierce warrior; she has a softer side, too. “She will definitely have a love story,” Lilly says. “I can’t give away too much about it. It’s not a huge focus but it is there and it is important and it does drive Tauriel and her story and her actions.”
Awesome - so we can have more of the same ham-fisted romance that made Aragorn and Arwen light up the screen?

While I won't go as far as Skald (I'll definitely watch the movies) but I'm in broad agreement with his conclusions.
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  #7  
Old 06-05-2013, 06:21 PM
Thudlow Boink Thudlow Boink is online now
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Lilly is well aware that some Tolkien purists will be skeptical about the introduction of a new character. “I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are going to be people who will totally hate Tauriel, think that she shouldn’t be in the movie, that it’s a betrayal of Tolkien, and no matter what I do it won’t be right,” she says. “...But I think if anyone knows how to respect Tolkien, it’s Peter, Fran and Phil. And Tauriel fits perfectly in that world.”
I know that last sentence is going to raise some eyebrows. Can any of our resident Tolkien experts tell what Tolkien himself would have thought of such a character?
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:22 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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The picture looks lit it's a screencap from a video game. I think the colors are over-saturated, or something.

And I can see making a hitherto-nameless elf guard female (why not?), but developing her to the point that she'll have a love story? That just completely comes out of absolutely nowhere.
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  #9  
Old 06-05-2013, 06:39 PM
smiling bandit smiling bandit is offline
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Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
I know that last sentence is going to raise some eyebrows. Can any of our resident Tolkien experts tell what Tolkien himself would have thought of such a character?
Shockingly, it's unlikely Tolkien would have been terribly impressed with a fairly stock Hollywood "badass," regardless of what film she was in.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:00 PM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is online now
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I think she's based on Thranduil's unnamed "Captain of the guard". Given JRRT's predilection for writing about assertive elf-women in the past who "acted like men", I can digest the concept without much pain.

Galadriel was also known as Nerwen, or "man-maiden".

Aredhel told her brother the king to get stuffed and went off on adventures.

Luthien kicked Sauron's butt and cast a glamour over Morgoth.

Mithrellas had two kids by a mortal man then skipped out leaving him to raise them.
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  #11  
Old 06-05-2013, 07:09 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
The picture looks lit it's a screencap from a video game. I think the colors are over-saturated, or something.
It's because of the 3D process, which mutes the colors. To compensate, the props and sets are done up in really garish colors. Once the film's been fully processed, it will look a lot less eye-searing.
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  #12  
Old 06-05-2013, 07:14 PM
standingwave standingwave is offline
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Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
I know that last sentence is going to raise some eyebrows. Can any of our resident Tolkien experts tell what Tolkien himself would have thought of such a character?
Look no further than Luthien....
Let's start with Luthien... along with being the "fairest child of Elves or Men", the daughter of a Maia, and the most accomplished singer of all time, she also loved her man so much as to be willing to knock out her guards and leave home and face down Sauron and beat Sauron's sorry ass just to stand by him. She was willing to go with him straight to Thangorodrim itself, put one over on Morgoth(!), and even after all that still cared for him so much that she was willing to go to Mandos and talk the Valar into bringing Beren back to life. Let's face it: Luthien Tinuviel was one hot thoroughly accomplished scared-o-nothin' clever-as-hell broad.
http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/arag_arw.htm
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:18 PM
Súil Dubh Súil Dubh is offline
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Originally Posted by standingwave View Post
Yeah, I heard about this months ago. I have a love/hate relationship with Jackson's Middle Earth films but they seem to embrace the spirit of the films more or less and that's good enough for me. The books will still be there after all.
I feel the same way. No matter how the films turn out, the books are always there to be enjoyed on their own.

As long as any new characters that appear are still in the spirit of the books, I can't really find myself getting too upset.

(For the record, I really liked all three of the Lord of the Rings films, but found the first Hobbit film to be a bit too long.)
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  #14  
Old 06-05-2013, 07:41 PM
Gagundathar Gagundathar is offline
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As a D&Der of many years, that is one heck of a sylvan elf.
Yes, the colors are oversaturated, but it IS a fantasy after all, y'all.

We all knew Mr. Jackson would take liberties with The Hobbit and that would have to include the addition of new characters and the expansion of the existing ones. Having one of the new ones be a female powerful character is a very good idea.
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  #15  
Old 06-05-2013, 07:46 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
And I can see making a hitherto-nameless elf guard female (why not?), but developing her to the point that she'll have a love story? That just completely comes out of absolutely nowhere.
Yes, this. I likewise have no problem with making the movies' Elven cultures a bit more flexible than those of the books were in terms of gender norms.

Digression: In fact, it could be argued that this modification is actually somewhat more true to the spirit of the ancient sagas Tolkien was deliberately imitating, with their shieldmaidens and valkyries and powerful elven queens directing troops in battle, than Tolkien's own version. It's always seemed weird to me, for example, that Eowyn is the only identified shieldmaiden of the Rohirrim or IIRC of any other race of Men throughout their entire history---yeah there's Haleth and some other valiant queens, but I don't know of any other chick that actually strapped on a breastplate. Clearly a shieldmaiden is a "thing" among Middle-earth warrior-class humans, a culturally recognized concept rather than a unique lunatic aberration, so how could Eowyn be the only example of one that ever appears anywhere in the historical record? /digression [ETA: and Qadgop's points about Tolkien's examples of heroic Elven women in the LOTR backstory reinforce this for me. /digression for real this time.]

But giving this new female character a big enough story arc to include a love interest? Sheeyut, I don't really care about the love lives of any Sylvan Elf soldiers, male or female. Why are you wasting film on this pointless diversion, Mr. Jackson?

On the other hand. While there are a lot of Jackson's tweaks and flourishes on Tolkien that I don't much care for, there are some that have grafted themselves onto my perception of Middle-earth forever. Before I saw the movies, for example, I didn't know that dwarves often braided their hair and beards in distinctive individual ways. Now I do, and I'm just surprised that I hadn't realized it before. Of course that would be something dwarves do, even if Tolkien never explicitly mentioned it. It's obvious.

Maybe the story of Tauriel the female captain of the Sylvan Elves' guard will similarly strike a narrative "sweet spot" with me and become something that was always true about the Wood-elves but I just never noticed it before. Or maybe not. We'll have to see.

Last edited by Kimstu; 06-05-2013 at 07:50 PM..
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  #16  
Old 06-05-2013, 08:35 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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The beards, I think I sort of had in mind before the movies. The bit that's become a part of my personal headcanon, though, is Sam clobbering an orc with a frying pan. Yeah, I can see him being a lot more comfortable with a pan than with a dagger.
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  #17  
Old 06-05-2013, 08:41 PM
Elendil's Heir Elendil's Heir is online now
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That's not a very flattering picture of her, and I'm not crazy about the description of her as a near-berserker Elf warrior, but I'll hope for the best.
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  #18  
Old 06-05-2013, 09:27 PM
Odesio Odesio is online now
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The best thing you can do to a classic piece of literature when you adapt it is to create a completely original character with his or her own plot shoe horned in.
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  #19  
Old 06-05-2013, 10:02 PM
Sehmket Sehmket is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
But giving this new female character a big enough story arc to include a love interest? Sheeyut, I don't really care about the love lives of any Sylvan Elf soldiers, male or female. Why are you wasting film on this pointless diversion, Mr. Jackson?

...

Maybe the story of Tauriel the female captain of the Sylvan Elves' guard will similarly strike a narrative "sweet spot" with me and become something that was always true about the Wood-elves but I just never noticed it before. Or maybe not. We'll have to see.
Back in my undergrad days (Those particular days being the semester leading up to the first LotR moving coming out, so... fall 2002?), I took a course about Tolkien (a 300 level Honors elective). One of the books we read was a compilation of Tolkien's letters. One of the things I, as a budding young feminist, had a hard time getting over was just how WEIRD Tolkien was about gender relations. He refused to visit C.S. Lewis' house if Lewis' wife was home (because being in such a private setting with another woman might incite lustful thoughts). He was positively baffled at any woman who wanted to continue her education, and vehemently opposed to women at Oxford... not so much because he didn't think they were capable, but being around women might create lustful thoughts in the men and because... well, why are they even there? Why could they possibly want anything other than a home and a million babies? Isn't going to school just a waste of time for everyone involved, since once she meets the right man, she'll just want to go make babies?

Adding the love story actually makes a lot of sense in light of many of his other views on women - Love (both romantic and familial) is the only real drive women have in Tolkien's mind. A woman, in his world, is obviously perfectly capable of most anything a man is, but the only reason she might want to do is to win the affections of a particular man (either in terms of romance, or to make her father proud... which usually gets her a husband). That's why there's so few women out adventuring or shield-maiden-ing; not because they're not capable, but because most of them have found a decent relationship. The ones who haven't deserve some sort of pity, because they're just waiting for the right love to come along for them to throw down their sword and raise babies or whatever.

It's in some ways almost as empowering as it is demeaning. Women are smart, strong, and capable, but unfulfilled as a human being until they're making a home and raising children. Of course, men are often viewed as the same way - they're easily swayed by lust (although their lust is often more nuanced, and may be for something like power), and (IRL, if not in the books as much), can't be trusted around women because they might just fall into a lustful rage and... I dunno, rape them or something?

A friend and I spent one night, fueled by SoCo and OJ, scouring several books for anything Tolkien (or Lewis, who shared many of his odd views) might have written on lesbians. Alas, it appears it was not a topic of his time.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:42 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by Push You Down View Post
...this is kind of old news. They already released her action figure.
As the OP and the article title both say, first look. Not first news. And the article did have new information.
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  #21  
Old 06-05-2013, 11:08 PM
jayjay jayjay is online now
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Originally Posted by Sehmket View Post
Back in my undergrad days (Those particular days being the semester leading up to the first LotR moving coming out, so... fall 2002?), I took a course about Tolkien (a 300 level Honors elective). One of the books we read was a compilation of Tolkien's letters. One of the things I, as a budding young feminist, had a hard time getting over was just how WEIRD Tolkien was about gender relations. He refused to visit C.S. Lewis' house if Lewis' wife was home (because being in such a private setting with another woman might incite lustful thoughts). He was positively baffled at any woman who wanted to continue her education, and vehemently opposed to women at Oxford... not so much because he didn't think they were capable, but being around women might create lustful thoughts in the men and because... well, why are they even there? Why could they possibly want anything other than a home and a million babies? Isn't going to school just a waste of time for everyone involved, since once she meets the right man, she'll just want to go make babies?

Adding the love story actually makes a lot of sense in light of many of his other views on women - Love (both romantic and familial) is the only real drive women have in Tolkien's mind. A woman, in his world, is obviously perfectly capable of most anything a man is, but the only reason she might want to do is to win the affections of a particular man (either in terms of romance, or to make her father proud... which usually gets her a husband). That's why there's so few women out adventuring or shield-maiden-ing; not because they're not capable, but because most of them have found a decent relationship. The ones who haven't deserve some sort of pity, because they're just waiting for the right love to come along for them to throw down their sword and raise babies or whatever.

It's in some ways almost as empowering as it is demeaning. Women are smart, strong, and capable, but unfulfilled as a human being until they're making a home and raising children. Of course, men are often viewed as the same way - they're easily swayed by lust (although their lust is often more nuanced, and may be for something like power), and (IRL, if not in the books as much), can't be trusted around women because they might just fall into a lustful rage and... I dunno, rape them or something?

A friend and I spent one night, fueled by SoCo and OJ, scouring several books for anything Tolkien (or Lewis, who shared many of his odd views) might have written on lesbians. Alas, it appears it was not a topic of his time.
It's interesting that this is also a trait shared by many of Heinlein's female characters...capable as hell, brave as anything, sharp as a tack, but damn if almost every one isn't man- and baby-crazy.
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  #22  
Old 06-06-2013, 07:12 AM
muldoonthief muldoonthief is offline
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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
I think she's based on Thranduil's unnamed "Captain of the guard".
So we can expect her to get drunk & pass out with the butler, then get groped by Bilbo?
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  #23  
Old 06-06-2013, 07:19 AM
C K Dexter Haven C K Dexter Haven is offline
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Interesting that this is posited as the need "to expand the world." Sigh. I agree that FELLOWSHIP was by far the best of the LotR trilogy, but then I think that it's the best of the three books, as well. But what Jackson doesn't seem to understand is that it's not necessary "to expand the world" -- in making a movie from a book, one needs to CONTRACT the world. Stuff needs to be left out. The biggest problem with expanding THE HOBBIT to three movies is that it's full of stuff that become borrrrrring -- too damn many battles already, and we've only seen the first. "Expand"? Pfffffui. I hope that the special-edition DVD allows me to SKIP scenes, rather than just to add more piffle.
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  #24  
Old 06-06-2013, 07:28 AM
blindboyard blindboyard is online now
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On the one hand, introducing girl power to Tolkien seems a bit unnecessary. I mean, there are no black people in the source material either, but they aren't being added in. And Idris Elba would have made a fantastic Aragorn. That, I would've paid to see.

But on the other hand, there are making three films out of one book, so they need to pad it out and add some variety. So, why not a stupid love story angle?

Also, Tolkien was basically interested as a linguist. So, is it me or is Tauriel a stupid name? I don't think he'd like it.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:54 AM
Anaamika Anaamika is online now
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I was doing OK until I heard about the romance. I too find it appalling that seemingly every woman in fantasy wants to have romance and possibly kids. Men don't subscribe to that standard; we have tons and tons of men who never even think about romance until it's far too late, and then a hot chicky shows up for them on cue.

I love the Jackson movies, mostly anyway. There are a few flaws, but there's lots of flaws in the Tolkien books to me, too (blasphemy I know!) so they are not perfect either. I am willing to accept both. But I don't particularly like romance being shoehorned into a story.

That being said, Arwen and Aragorn's romance hardly bothered me. It was just a few light scenes and I thought it was nicely done and a nice interplay with the Fellowship. I only didn't like the changes in the third film, and I enjoyed The Hobbit a LOT. Who knew dwarves could be so hot?
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  #26  
Old 06-06-2013, 07:55 AM
Wendell Wagner Wendell Wagner is offline
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Sehmket writes:

> Back in my undergrad days (Those particular days being the semester leading
> up to the first LotR moving coming out, so... fall 2002?), I took a course about
> Tolkien (a 300 level Honors elective). One of the books we read was a
> compilation of Tolkien's letters. One of the things I, as a budding young
> feminist, had a hard time getting over was just how WEIRD Tolkien was about
> gender relations. He refused to visit C.S. Lewis' house if Lewis' wife was home
> (because being in such a private setting with another woman might incite lustful
> thoughts). He was positively baffled at any woman who wanted to continue her
> education, and vehemently opposed to women at Oxford... not so much
> because he didn't think they were capable, but being around women might
> create lustful thoughts in the men and because... well, why are they even
> there? Why could they possibly want anything other than a home and a million
> babies? Isn't going to school just a waste of time for everyone involved, since
>once she meets the right man, she'll just want to go make babies?

Could you cite the specific letters where Tolkien said these things? I believe this is hopelessly wrong as a summary of Tolkien's opinions.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:10 AM
Wendell Wagner Wendell Wagner is offline
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sehmket writes:

> A friend and I spent one night, fueled by SoCo and OJ, scouring several books
> for anything Tolkien (or Lewis, who shared many of his odd views) might have
> written on lesbians. Alas, it appears it was not a topic of his time.

He also had nothing to say about how toilets worked in Middle-earth, or about how merchants and traders supplied the economy in Middle-earth, or about what plagues there had been in Middle-earth and what was done about them, or about the details of agriculture in Middle-earth, or about ordinary education in Middle-earth. Any of those things are topics that any historian of Medieval European societies would be concerned about. (For the moment, let's assume that Middle-earth society at the time of The Lord of the Rings is vaguely like Medieval European society.) Tolkien was a novelist, not a historian. He doesn't have to mention every topic in existence.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:17 AM
Frylock Frylock is offline
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Could you cite the specific letters where Tolkien said these things? I believe this is hopelessly wrong as a summary of Tolkien's opinions.
I'm also interested, not because I disagree but because I'm interested.

Last edited by Frylock; 06-06-2013 at 08:17 AM..
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  #29  
Old 06-06-2013, 08:20 AM
Frylock Frylock is offline
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Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner View Post
sehmket writes:

> A friend and I spent one night, fueled by SoCo and OJ, scouring several books
> for anything Tolkien (or Lewis, who shared many of his odd views) might have
> written on lesbians. Alas, it appears it was not a topic of his time.

He also had nothing to say about how toilets worked in Middle-earth, or about how merchants and traders supplied the economy in Middle-earth, or about what plagues there had been in Middle-earth and what was done about them, or about the details of agriculture in Middle-earth, or about ordinary education in Middle-earth. Any of those things are topics that any historian of Medieval European societies would be concerned about. (For the moment, let's assume that Middle-earth society at the time of The Lord of the Rings is vaguely like Medieval European society.) Tolkien was a novelist, not a historian. He doesn't have to mention every topic in existence.
This is silly. No one said he had to or should have mentioned lesbians. They were curious whether he had, not expecting that he should.

Last edited by Frylock; 06-06-2013 at 08:20 AM..
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:27 AM
Wendell Wagner Wendell Wagner is offline
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Then why did sehmket mention the topic of lesbians at all? I could have said that Tolkien never mentioned the Twin-Prime Conjecture. If you would have then asked why I thought that Tolkien should have mentioned that conjecture, I could have replied that I didn't think that he should have mentioned it. I was just curious why he didn't mention it.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:31 AM
Malthus Malthus is online now
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Originally Posted by Lasciel View Post
I will say that if the Professor had been a bit more inclusive of women in his staggeringly epic world in the FIRST place, then things like this (and the oft-parodied Arwen Warrior Princess issue from LoTR) wouldn't be necessary, but it's a little hard to knock him for it too seriously, as he was a product of his time. (And he created Eowyn, who is bad-ass enough to make up for a half-dozen Wheel of Time women all on her own.)
I dunno about that. Tolkien wrote some of the most staggeringly bad-ass female characters in all of fantasy, in his day or ours.

It is just that most of them (save Eowyn, whom you mentioned) were in parts of his mythology that he, personally, considered more important than the LoTR or the Hobbit, but which haven't attracted as much attention from the public at large - think for example of Luthien.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:44 AM
CarnalK CarnalK is online now
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Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner View Post
Could you cite the specific letters where Tolkien said these things? I believe this is hopelessly wrong as a summary of Tolkien's opinions.
It would have been interesting if you gave a little rebuttal rather than "I think that's wrong". You obviously have specifics in mind if you believe it's "hopelessly" wrong.
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  #33  
Old 06-06-2013, 08:52 AM
Chimera Chimera is online now
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I am always amused by the intensity of the "Thou shalt not stray by so much as a single jot!" vehemence of the fanboys.

Ya got two choices;

1. Movie never gets made.
2. It strays.

If you're the type who thinks that no movie should ever be made if it isn't 100% true to the source material, then a whole lot of Life in general must truly suck for you and you should probably try to be less angry about how the world isn't the way you want it to be.

I for one enjoyed all of the LotR movies and enjoyed the hell out of TH. Sure, I feel the same way about the 'scrubbing bubbles' of the Army of the Dead in RotK, but most of the other criticisms I see are just noise.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:59 AM
smiling bandit smiling bandit is offline
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It would have been interesting if you gave a little rebuttal rather than "I think that's wrong". You obviously have specifics in mind if you believe it's "hopelessly" wrong.
Even in Cafe Society, it is the person who states a position, not the one who counters it, who must provide evidence. Wagner questioned the accuracy of the statement; he is under no obligation to show anything until some evidence supporting the statement has been offered.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera
I am always amused by the intensity of the "Thou shalt not stray by so much as a single jot!" vehemence of the fanboys.
I may agree in principle, but here's the thing: Peej (the director) is a hamfisted dolt the further he does stray. The shift betwen Tolkein's material, and his, is absolutely huge, and the transition is jarringly intense. As long as he adapts or condenses, he's in good waters. But in every single instance he adds to the mix, it's grossly inferior to even a casual fan. Or in my case, someone with a passing interesting in moviemaking techniques.

He has a tendency to introduce complete irrelevancies, beat a dead horse until it rises as a zombie out of sheer outrage, and go utterly over the top for no good reason. Witness every last scene involving Radagast from The Hobbit.
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  #35  
Old 06-06-2013, 09:04 AM
OttoDaFe OttoDaFe is offline
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This kind of tripped me up:
Quote:
“She’s a Sylvan Elf, which means she’s of a much lower order than the elves we all became acquainted with in The Lord of the Rings. She doesn’t hold the same kind of status that Arwen or Galadriel or Elrond or Legolas do — she’s much more lowly. She sort of goes against the social order of the elves a little bit.”
I don't recall whether it's called out in the movies — and I'm far too lazy to go back and wade through them — but in the books Legolas is identified as Thranduil's son, and is therefore a Sylvan (or Woodland) Elf. And as for "a much lower order," even in the movies Galadriel definitely recognizes and welcomes Legolas as kin.

Granted that this is pretty much a press release rather than an ex cathedra statement of canon, but it was a bit jarring.
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  #36  
Old 06-06-2013, 09:20 AM
jayjay jayjay is online now
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Actually, the common elves of Mirkwood/Greenwood were Silvan elves, but Thranduil (and therefore Legolas) were Sindarin. The elven leaders were generally Calaquendi of various sorts...whether Galadriel's Noldorin origins or Thranduil's/Celeborn's/Thingol's Sindarin origins. (Sindarin elves were considered Calaquendi because of Melian's presence in Doriath, despite their never having seen the Trees.)
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  #37  
Old 06-06-2013, 09:21 AM
Grey Grey is online now
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Thranduil was Sindarian from Doriath.

Then again, all the elves in Lothlorien were Silvan so I'm not sure what their point is.
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  #38  
Old 06-06-2013, 09:38 AM
Frylock Frylock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner View Post
Then why did sehmket mention the topic of lesbians at all? I could have said that Tolkien never mentioned the Twin-Prime Conjecture. If you would have then asked why I thought that Tolkien should have mentioned that conjecture, I could have replied that I didn't think that he should have mentioned it. I was just curious why he didn't mention it.
If you will recall (or reread) her entire post was discussing incidents taking place in the context of her budding feminism as an English major taking upper level courses, one of them focusing on Tolkien. Of course she wondered whether Tolkien had anything to say about Lesbians.

(sorry if you're not a "she" btw, oh ye poster to whom I am referring)

Last edited by Frylock; 06-06-2013 at 09:38 AM..
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  #39  
Old 06-06-2013, 09:39 AM
Frylock Frylock is offline
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Originally Posted by smiling bandit View Post
Even in Cafe Society, it is the person who states a position, not the one who counters it, who must provide evidence. Wagner questioned the accuracy of the statement; he is under no obligation to show anything until some evidence supporting the statement has been offered.

CarnalK correctly pointed out that it would have been interesting for Wendell Wagner to provide some texts of his own. None of what you say above address that fact.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:55 AM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by blindboyard View Post
Also, Tolkien was basically interested as a linguist. So, is it me or is Tauriel a stupid name? I don't think he'd like it.
AFAICT it's legit Sindarin: taur "forest, great wood" plus the feminine suffix -iel signifying "maiden, woman". "Daughter of the forest" seems to be how people are translating it.
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  #41  
Old 06-06-2013, 10:14 AM
jayjay jayjay is online now
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
AFAICT it's legit Sindarin: taur "forest, great wood" plus the feminine suffix -iel signifying "maiden, woman". "Daughter of the forest" seems to be how people are translating it.
Yes. Compare "Galadriel" = "galad-" (radiant) "-iel" (woman), although she was sometimes called "Galadhriel" (tree-woman) through confusion with her Silvan subjects and the mallorns that grew in Lothlorien.
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  #42  
Old 06-06-2013, 10:45 AM
Grey Grey is online now
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Please dear lord, do not let the love interest be Bilbo or Thorin...I beg of you.
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  #43  
Old 06-06-2013, 11:00 AM
mlees mlees is online now
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Please dear lord, do not let the love interest be Bilbo or Thorin...I beg of you.
Bard. And she gets the kill shot.
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  #44  
Old 06-06-2013, 11:00 AM
smiling bandit smiling bandit is offline
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Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
CarnalK correctly pointed out that it would have been interesting for Wendell Wagner to provide some texts of his own. None of what you say above address that fact.
Not sure how he could have. The original claim was a combination fo vague and specific points. In theory, some of them could be positively disproven, but only if there's a specific counter-example. And Tolkein wasn't an autobiographer.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:06 AM
Malthus Malthus is online now
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Originally Posted by Grey View Post
Please dear lord, do not let the love interest be Bilbo or Thorin...I beg of you.
She's the captain of the guard, right?

Far as I know, all she gets is a drunken tete-a-tete with the Butler ...
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  #46  
Old 06-06-2013, 11:36 AM
Dr. Righteous Dr. Righteous is offline
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On the more general topic of adding in a character that wasn't there before, here's what Viggo Mortensen has to say on the subject.

I always knew I liked him.

(I liked the first 3 movies but Hobbit 1 left me cold, and the more I think about the movie the more annoyed I get. Not sure if I'll bother seeing Hobbit 2: Electric Bugaloo)
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  #47  
Old 06-06-2013, 11:57 AM
Frylock Frylock is offline
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Originally Posted by smiling bandit View Post
Not sure how he could have. The original claim was a combination fo vague and specific points. In theory, some of them could be positively disproven, but only if there's a specific counter-example. And Tolkein wasn't an autobiographer.
It's easily concievable that Tolkien wrote passages about women which are in tension with, or incompatible with, the characterization Wendell Wagner objected to. Indeed Wendell Wagner seemed so postive that that the characterization was wrong, I'm surprised if he doesn't have some particular writings by Tolkien in mind.

Anyway, it would have been interesting but of course it's not obligatory. I'm particularly interested in seeing what Tolkien is supposed to have written which paints him has having the "odd" views about women ascribed to him above.
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  #48  
Old 06-06-2013, 01:24 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is online now
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Originally Posted by smiling bandit View Post
Not sure how he could have. The original claim was a combination fo vague and specific points. In theory, some of them could be positively disproven, but only if there's a specific counter-example. And Tolkein wasn't an autobiographer.
sehmket gave her impression after reading/studying Tolkien-Lewis letters; it's lame to just answer "that is totally wrong and I'm not going to say why I think that".
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  #49  
Old 06-06-2013, 01:51 PM
Malthus Malthus is online now
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
sehmket gave her impression after reading/studying Tolkien-Lewis letters; it's lame to just answer "that is totally wrong and I'm not going to say why I think that".
I don't agree. If someone makes a positive claim about a person's stated beliefs, it isn't "lame" to ask what they are basing it on, stating that it seems to you out of character from what you know about that person generally.

Not that I have an opinion one way or the other about Tolkien's personal beliefs about women. I've never read any of his letters, other than some (admirable) responses he gave on the subject of anti-semitism.
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  #50  
Old 06-06-2013, 01:54 PM
Elendil's Heir Elendil's Heir is online now
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A few years back I read Humphrey Carpenter's collection of JRRT's letters (http://www.amazon.com/The-Letters-J-...hrey+carpenter), which I really enjoyed and highly recommend. I don't remember anything out of the ordinary for his generation as to his views on women. He disapproved of C.S. Lewis's wife because he thought she was gauche and pushy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malthus View Post
...Not that I have an opinion one way or the other about Tolkien's personal beliefs about women. I've never read any of his letters, other than some (admirable) responses he gave on the subject of anti-semitism.
One of my favorite letters of his. Not even Churchill bashed Nazis better in print: http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03...at-gifted.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey View Post
Please dear lord, do not let the love interest be Bilbo or Thorin...I beg of you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlees View Post
Bard. And she gets the kill shot.
Aiyeee! Kill me now!

Last edited by Elendil's Heir; 06-06-2013 at 01:56 PM..
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