SDMB Weekly Bible Study (SDMBWBS)-Week 52 Exodus 33

Welcome to the SDMB weekly Bible Study (SDMBWBS). This week we will be discussing Exodus 33, which contains Moses seeing God’s Glory. Since the discussion can turn into a very broad and hijackable thread, we would like the following rules to be adhered to:
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[li]These SDMBWBS threads are to deal with the books and stories in the Bible as literature. What we hope to achieve is an understanding of the stories, the time in which they were written, their context, and possibly their cultural relevance. [/li][li]While it is up to the individual to choose to believe or disbelieve any portion, that is not to be the discussion of the thread. If you must, please choose to witness/anti-witness in Great Debates. [/li][li]The intention is to go through the Bible from front to back in order. While different books are needed to be referred to in order to understand context, please try and keep the focus on the thread’s selected chapter(s)/verse(s).[/li][li]Since different religions have chosen which books to include or omit, the threads will use the Catholic version of 46 Old Testament Books and 27 New Testament Books. It’s encouraged to discuss why a book was included/omitted during the applicable threads only. BibleHub, as far as I know, is a good resource that compiles many different versions of the verses into one page. (The SDMB Staff Reports on “Who Wrote the Bible” are also a good overview). Please feel free to use whatever source you want, including–and even more helpfully–the original language.[/li][li]Hopefully, we can get through these threads with little to no moderation. As a gentle reminder, if a poster comes in and ignores these rules, please use the “report post” function instead of responding.[/li][/ol]

Links to previous threads:
[ul]
[li]Genesis Threads[/ul][/li]
[ul]
[li]Exodus 1[/li][li]Exodus 2[/li][li]Exodus 3[/li][li]Exodus 4[/li][li]Exodus 5-6[/li][li]Exodus 7-10[/li][li]Exodus 11-12[/li][li]Exodus 13[/li][li]Exodus 14-15[/li][li]Exodus 16-18[/li][li]Exodus 19-20[/li][li]Exodus 21-23[/li][li]Exodus 24[/li][li]Exodus 25-27[/li][li]Exodus 28-30[/li][li]Exodus 31[/li][li]Exodus 32[/li][/ul]

[Exodus 33](Exodus - The Israelites Oppressed - These are - Bible Gateway 33&version=NIV) – New International Version (NIV)

33 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go up to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ [SUP]2[/SUP]I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. [SUP]3[/SUP]Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”

[SUP]4[/SUP]When the people heard these distressing words, they began to mourn and no one put on any ornaments. [SUP]5[/SUP]For the LORD had said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.’” [SUP]6[/SUP]So the Israelites stripped off their ornaments at Mount Horeb.

The Tent of Meeting

[SUP]7[/SUP]Now Moses used to take a tent and pitch it outside the camp some distance away, calling it the “tent of meeting.” Anyone inquiring of the LORD would go to the tent of meeting outside the camp. [SUP]8[/SUP]And whenever Moses went out to the tent, all the people rose and stood at the entrances to their tents, watching Moses until he entered the tent. [SUP]9[/SUP]As Moses went into the tent, the pillar of cloud would come down and stay at the entrance, while the LORD spoke with Moses. [SUP]10[/SUP]Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent. [SUP]11[/SUP]The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.

Moses and the Glory of the LORD

[SUP]12[/SUP]Moses said to the LORD, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ [SUP]13[/SUP]If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”

[SUP]14[/SUP]The LORD replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

[SUP]15[/SUP]Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. [SUP]16[/SUP]How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

[SUP]17[/SUP]And the LORD said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

[SUP]18[/SUP]Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

[SUP]19[/SUP]And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [SUP]20[/SUP]But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

[SUP]21[/SUP]Then the LORD said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. [SUP]22[/SUP]When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. [SUP]23[/SUP]Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”
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Dex’s Notes

CH 33

This chapter is delicious, and full of philosophy/theology, and considerable profundity.

So, in response to Moses’ plea, God will still fulfill his promise to the patriarchs, and bring the Israelites to the Promised Land. The land is described in two ways: (a) full of other peoples (description to Abraham); and (b) flowing with milk and honey (description to Moses.) And remember that milk meant goats’ milk and honey meant date-jam. The “go up” in v 1 is in contrast to the “go down” in 32:7, there’s been a reversal, the anger has been diminished.

It’s now “the people” as opposed to Moses’ people (32:7).

“But I will not go with you because you are a stiffnecked people.” So there has not yet been reconciliation/forgiveness for the sin of the golden calf. The original idea of the tabernacle was for God to dwell there, and this seems not going to happen. The promise to be with them was made to Abraham, and is renewed; but the promise to dwell with them was made to Moses and is shattered by the golden calf episode. The purpose of the tabernacle is to provide a place for God to dwell, so at this point it would seem that the order for the tabernacle has been cancelled.

Paradoxically, in v 3, we see that the withdrawal of God’s presence is merciful, to avoid destruction.

V 4 is the only mention in the Torah of mourning without an actual death. Symbolically, their old identity, their old selves, must die. As part of mourning, they take off any fine clothes or jewelry. God tells them to remain in mourning. The “I will decide” [NIV] is actually “I will know” [remember how the word “to know” echoed and re-echoed through Egypt?]

In v 11, Moses speaks to God “face to face” (as opposed to “stiff-necked” meaning turning away), but they are in the cloud, so Moses can’t actually see anything.

Joshua is the custodian of the tent of meeting. This is NOT the tabernacle, which has not yet been built, but a private tent. Joshua remains outside, and is not privy to the private conversation about to happen.

Verse 12 – 23 are unique, the only private, intimate conversation between God and a prophet. Because he took initiative (in smashing the calf, etc), Moses has earned the right to be closer to God. This isn’t simply a revelation with God issuing orders or warnings, this is an intimate conversation between the human and the divine.

My first comment: the text is (to me) extremely subtle, especially when compared to other early literature. In Homer, for example, feelings and thoughts of the characters are all explicit. Here, the text of the Torah describes only the surface, and the richer interpretations are beneath the surface. Hence, lots of analysis (sorry.)

V 12: Moses is essentially saying: where do I stand? What is our relationship now?

V 13: “Teach me your ways:” This is really a question, not a statement, meaning tell me how the world is governed? Why is it that the righteous aren’t always rewarded and the wicked aren’t always punished? What are God’s essential characteristics? What is life all about? Moses needs to ask, because he’s starting from scratch: the contract was broken. And, like Abraham (Gen 18:25), the assumption is that God is not whimsical or capricious, but acts according to standards of justice and mercy that humans can try to understand (but ultimately can not understand.)

“This nation is your people.” Contrast to God’s statement in 32:7, that they belong to Moses, and in 33:1 where it’s just “the people.” Moses is challenging God not to disown them.

V 14: God’s reply is addressed to Moses’ first question, where do I stand? And not to his second (theological) questions. The Torah rarely (if ever) discusses theology or the nature of God.

V 15: Moses notices that God doesn’t mention the people Israel, and reacts immediately by stressing their needs: “… do not send us up from here.” Note the “us.” If God’s presence doesn’t go with us, let us all die in the desert. This, and verse 16, lead to the notion that God accompanies the Jews wherever they go. In 586 BCE, when the Temple was destroyed and the Jews exiled to Babylonia, this notion that God could even be with them in Babylon, is what sustained them, where most other conquered peoples (and their localized religions) disappeared.

V 17: The verb “to know” appears yet again. Knowing someone by name implies an intimacy, exclusive and unique. God does not say this about anyone else in the bible. He says He will indeed tell Moses the deepest mystery, how the moral universe works, but then He doesn’t. Instead, He says, “I have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” That is to say, none of your business, it is what it is, I am what I am.

Note that the emphasis here is on the goodness; Moses last conversation with God was of anger and plague, now supplanted by divine goodness.

V 18: “Show me your glory” but it’s difficult to translate. The word kavod that means “glory” also means heaviness, profundity, or presence. At Sinai (24:17) the Lord’s glory (kavod) appeared as “consuming fire on top of the mountain.” Moses is asking for a profound, intimate moment: let me see You undressed. Maimonides interprets this figuratively, that Moses wants intellectual understanding of God’s essential reality. Rambam interprets this literally, Moses really wants to see the divine presence.

Every other appearance of a visible kavod is experienced by a large number of people, in the distance; and the occasion is initiated by God. Here, Moses is asking for a unique individual experience, close by, in response to his request.

V 21: NIV’s “stand on a rock” misses some subtleties. Better is “Station yourself on the craggy rock,” it means stand at attention, hold your place. The word is used for Jacob at the ladder-dream, Miriam at the river, and Israel at covenantal moments.

“My hand” is a poetic term, for some sort of screening, perhaps the cloud. The anthropomorphic “my back” is in contrast to “my face.” Sarna says “the term means the traces of His presence, the afterglow of His supernatural effulgence.” (Ah, scholars.)

“My face must not be seen” means that no human being can ever understand God’s Being, but can only have glimpses of divine reality. And God passing before Moses is a ceremony that implies the covenant will be renewed. (I would like to know the Christian interpretation of this sequence, if there’s anyone who knows it?)

This encounter effectively separates Moses from humanity. He is never again seen with wife or children. His relationship with God is too intense for him to have normal relations with human beings.

I find the whole section of the Israelites in the desert to be very interesting. It basically shows them as a pretty flawed people who make a lot of mistakes, but God sticks by them, either because of promises made, he’s the forgiving type, or special people like Moses intercede and convince him to be lenient. The Greek and the Roman were themselves flawed and the myths were about them and not the people. Here the “myths” are about the Israelites mostly and written by them but they aren’t really cast in a very good light. That seems different then the religions that went before. And God shows a heck of a lot of patience with these folks. It’s like every other encounter he’s regretting the promises he made, which also seems different than previous religions.

Hmm. Interesting take on it.

Looking at it from that perspective, I guess I can see it being god sticks with the Israelites because he’s their parent, they are his children, and he loves them even when they misbehave.

In contrast, I guess I took the Greek myths to be that it was assumed the gods would be there if they were worshiped and pleased. I do agree there is no underlying assumption in Greek myths of the gods being forever. Just as the titans were taken down, so could the current group.

I also see some other things from this passage. I’m not up on all Christian/Catholic teachings even if that’s what I grew up with but I can see how they get the hierarchy of the Catholic Church from these passages. It definitely says that someone is the spokesperson for god and at the top. I can then see how, over time, it would evolve into having offices below Pope as the religion was scattered more and more.

Of course, there could be more passages like this, or in the NT, that also say it. I will wait and see.

Thanks!

vislor

I don’t think I’d necessarily agree with Dex on God’s mercifulness… granted, of course, he’s not going along with them to avoid killing them. But his reasoning is that if he did go along, they’re just so annoying and recalcitrant that he’d end up killing them all. So merciful on one hand, not on the other. I think it’s a wash. Personally, I actually read that section first time through as a joke God was making. “Seriously, you guys are so bad at this…”

It’s interesting that this section first uses “face-to-face” as an analogy and then shreds that particular idea in reality. Not contradictory, but it makes the use of the former a little rhetorically odd.

I find the whole “I know you by name” thing interesting, given that the implication of it is “…which I can’t say for everyone else.” Especially in the context of what God is relying on that personal relationship to agree to. I like the swap that takes place, though; since God knows Moses by name, he’s entirely willing to share his own name with Moses. It’s not an equal relationship - it can’t be - but there’s give and take where there can be.

The idea of knowing Moses by name is interesting. He was adopted, after all. Mose means “son of” in Egyptian, and it was often connected with a deity, like with Thutmose. He could have cut the Egyptian deity off of his name.

Maybe God is saying He knows his real name.

Near the beginning of the chapter, God speaks to Moses face-to-face. At the end of the chapter, no one can see God’s face. Go figure.

Regards,
Shodan

New thread for Exodus 34.