Resolved: antisemitism is not directly comparable to anti-black racism

In another thread, several people have either implied or outright claimed that prejudice against and oppression of Jews is analogous to prejudice against and oppression of African Americans.

I think that’s a terrible analogy, and I want to confront it here.

A preface: I am not saying that the experience of black people is worse than the experience of Jews. Certainly the Holocaust is a unique event for several specific reasons. Instead I’m claiming that the specifics of the different forms of oppression have had different effects.

First, the early forms of oppression. Jews in Europe faced pogroms and were confined to ghettos that suffered periodic massacres. That’s terrible. They were forbidden to practice their religion. That’s awful. Through those experiences, though, Jews were able to maintain a coherent society in those ghettos (with exceptions such as fifteenth century Spain) and were able to continue practicing their religion in secret. They were able to maintain a written tradition and history. They were able to pass property down to their children.

Africans were enslaved, stripped of all wealth (literally all wealth, including their own clothes), and sold as property. Laws were written that legalized dismembering slaves. Communication among slaves was discouraged. Their religion and language were forbidden. Learning to read or write was forbidden. Ownership of significant property was forbidden. Members of families and tribes were routinely separated from one another. The previously existing social order was destroyed in a way that it was never destroyed for Jews–with, again, the possible exception of fifteenth century Spain.

In the twentieth century in the United States, Jews faced routine discrimination. The best jobs were not available to them. Some communities threatened to kill Jews who moved there. Clubs were closed to them. In Europe, they were massacred in one of the worst massacres in human history. But again, there were enclaves of Jewish culture that survived, due in large part to the ability in some societies to participate fully as equal members. Many Jewish people were able to obtain positions of power (not at the highest levels–no Jewish president–but at levels such as federal office or advisors to the presidency, or heads of major corporations).

In the twentieth century in the United States, black people faced routine violence, disenfrachisement, and discrimination. Major public policies that fundamentally changed culture for white gentiles and Jews, such as the Fair Labor Standards Act and the GI Bill, effectively excluded black Americans. Racist violence against black people was far more common in the United States than against Jews in the United States. Black people were forbidden from attending the best public school, up to and into the twenty-first century, in a way that rarely happened to Jewish people. The accumulation of wealth was sharply curtailed for black families through means both legal (redlining by banks) and illegal (lynchings of blacks who gained too much power, illegal hiring discrimination). The justice system regularly punished, and continues to punish, black people for crimes much more harshly than white gentiles and Jews are punished for the same crimes.

Some people make the claim that Jews have overcome oppression, so why can’t black people? I would say that in the United States, the systematic oppression of black people has been far more thorough, violent, and pervasive than the oppression of Jewish people, and so the analogy fails.

Not clear on the argument under debate.

That Jewish and Black experiences have been different is beyond dispute.

Whether one group or another had it worse depends very much on time and place. Is this about America only, or worldwide, or what?

I’d much rather be Black in America in the 1940s than Jewish in Europe in the 1940s, but I sense this isn’t what you are wanting to debate.

Is the question “the history of Blacks in America is different from that of Jews in America, so that they cannot be directly compared”, I would say I agree with that.

These are the two posts that make the analogy and that, I think, are woefully flawed:

While both Jews and African Americans have faced terrible prejudice in the US, I think the specifics of the injustice are highly salient when analyzing the differences between achievement levels of Jewish and African American students (as well as when analyzing other differences). The suggestion, implicit or explicit, that both Jews and black people have faced oppression, but Jews do well in school but black kids don’t, so there must be a genetic cause, is very silly.

Well, I’d tend to agree. The history of Blacks in America (including the legacy of slavery and on-going forms of oppression) is far different from the history of Jews in America, with different long-term cultural effects; and I would contend that it is these cultural effects that cause differences on average between the two groups, and not anything genetic.

Sadly, unless someone else shows up, that ends the debate. :smiley:

Absolutely.

Just because you can call two different things “racism” doesn’t mean they are equal in effect. Those two examples in post #3 are horrible horrible analogies.

The two forms of bigotry are separate but equal.

Bah. Separate is inherently unequal ;).

If there’s no debate on this, there might be a tiny bit more interesting debate related to the second post in the thread. Malthus says he’d rather be black in the US in 1940 than Jewish in Europe in 1940. What about being black or Jewish in Europe in 1940? I honestly don’t know, but my suspicion is that the few black folks in Germany in 1940 didn’t have a very easy time of it.

Have there been significant periods of history where it’d be better to be black than Jewish in a country predominantly ruled by white people?

I’m Jewish, and I can’t recall anyone ever saying that racism against African Americans, and anti-Semitism are essentially the same thing. Now, I have heard that they often come from the same direction, but that’s a whole different issue.

You can’t compare Europe to US, though.

Jews have been much better tolerated in the US than they have been in Europe. The most vicious anti-Semitism in history, until the last ten years or so of what has come from Hamas, always came from papist and Eastern Europe. Protestant Europe was slightly better, right up until mostly protestant Germany started breaking windows. (As horrible as the Holocaust was, and in the context of the 20th century, it’s unfathomable, it’s just one more attempt to get rid of the Jews, and many of these happened throughout our history). Is it any wonder that so many Jews came to the US between 1880 and 1920?

Black people, on the other hand, have been better tolerated in Europe, and Europe doesn’t have the baggage of slavery to overcome. The US treated Africans badly in a was that was unique to the 19th century. Historically, one people has rounded up and enslaved another, but most other countries had stopped treating other humans as chattel long before the US fought a war over it. And the US selected its slave population based on “race” alone, while other countries tended to choose slaves from debtor countries, losers in a battle, or occasionally in private transactions to settle debts.

The US did something really terrible to the ancestors of most of it’s present black citizenry, while the US has generally been a place of safety for Jews. So what if you couldn’t golf at some country club? You also couldn’t be forcibly relocated, or required to apply for permission to leave your tiny neighborhood to visit a relative, or conduct business. And you didn’t face summary execution if you didn’t return on time.

You can’t compare blacks and Jews, but you can’t compare Europe and the US either, so saying “Yeah, the Holocaust was bad, but being a slave was also bad,” is meaningless as a point of debate,

It was better to be Othello than Shylock… :wink:

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Resolved: antisemitism is not directly comparable to anti-black racism
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I think you had it right in the first place.

Don’t try to compare them. :slight_smile:

Seriously, about the only thing more lame and counter-productive than telling members of a minority what should and shouldn’t offend them, is telling members of a minority that they’ve had it better than another minority and should therefore shut up.

Comparing forms of oppression serves oppressors. The oppressed should never do it for that reason alone.

That’s pretty easy: under the Nazis, Jews = dead (often, worked to death in death camps, or simply gassed) while Blacks = considered lowest on the racial totem pole, discriminated against, and isolated by law (but not dead).

In short, better to have been Black than Jewish, but hardly “good”.

I’d say that prior to the European Black chattel slave trade (circa 1650s or so?), it was generally better to be Black than Jewish in Europe. Blacks that Europeans knew were either Christians or Muslims - in the former case, they could, and did, mingle in European society (albeit as curiousities); in the latter case, they were part of ‘the enemy’, but a formidable and in many cases respected one.

Think of Shakespeare’s “Othello”. He’s hardly an example of a racially inferior ‘natural slave’! Rather, he’s a Moorish General working for Venice - and no-one thought this was impossible in Europe at the time. (Contrast this with Shakespeare’s Venetian Jew, Shylock!)

Ironically (Nazis aside) the period that saw the European Slave trade, also saw the European enlightenment, which lead to the gradual dropping of medieval restrictions on Jews in Europe. As the position of Jews improved, that of Blacks got worse.

In general I think you’re right. I’ve seen conversations about, say, whether chattel slavery was worse than the Holocaust, or whether the Irish experience under Britain was worse than the Palestinian experience under Israel, or whatever; in general those are not productive conversations.

But in a particular social/historical context, it can be helpful to understand what the effects of prejudice are. It’s important not to wave your hands and act like any prejudice is exactly the same as all prejudices, not to use the “hey, we all got problems, kid” reasoning to dismiss injustices, as those quotes above appear to do.

In this case, a simple thought experiment might illuminate. Perhaps I should page Skald the Rhymer, but I’ll try it on my own.

Here’s the deal I’m offering: when you die, you’re going to be reincarnated, and you’re going to be reincarnated in the decade of your choice from 1920-1970 in the United States. You can choose to be reincarnated as a white Jew or as an African American. For the sake of your future life, do you care which you come back as? I can also set your future self up with a trust fund. How much money would I have to put in that fund in order to convince you to change your mind about which you’d come back as?

For myself, there’s no question that I’d rather come back as a white Jew, given the social realities of the US in the first seven decades: I’d face some discrimination, sure, but nothing like what I’d face as an African American. If you wanted me to switch, I might start considering a switch around a half- million dollars (in today’s money), but it’d be closer to a million before I’d think it was approaching a good deal to switch.

Or,
Jewish in England or Black in Mississippi in 1940?
Jewish in Germany or Black in Maine in 1940?
Jewish in Mississippi or Jewish in Manhattan in 1940?
Etc, etc, etc.
(Where Maine, Mississippi, and Manhattan might not be the worst or best place to be either in America in 1940.)

The possible permutations of the question don’t really tell you quite as much as you’d think the best answer for the question is at first glance. It’s pretty easy to say where you wouldn’t want to be, but the reality of being X where in Europe or Y where in America is too broad too begin with.

CMC fnord!

For my part, the suggestion was that the idea that ancestral oppression is a silly reason to propose for the inability of a currently privileged child to perform on par with a currently underprivileged child.

It had nothing to do with whether or not Jews or blacks somehow had similar experiences, other than that they both suffered.

It has to do with this asinine notion that something which happened to Gramps keeps me from learning to such a degree that even high opportunity is not enough to enable me to perform on par with students from very low opportunity.

What is it that happens to me, exactly? I sit in Calculus class and just sob about poor Gramps instead of learning the material?

I don’t know… no idea where you got this. Is there a straw man store? Straw-Men-R-Us? StrawMart?

While the reverse would suck, being Jewish in Southern USA or Black in Russia in 1840, doesn’t seem too bad.

Your understanding is terrible–in that other thread I posted nine reasons in a single post how ancestral oppression can affect current kids. Some sorts of oppression have effects that last for decades, especially oppression related to the accumulation of wealth. At this point you’re just repeating the fact that you’re ignorant; with each repetition after folks have tried to educate you, this becomes a decreasingly interesting thing to tell us.

May I [fnord to you too] suggest a more charitable reading of the question? That is, in any given place in Europe in 1940, would it be better to be black than to be Jewish? Malthus appears to answer the question in the affirmative: the Nazi program of murder of black people (especially black POWs) appears to be far more disorganized and piecemeal than their program of murder of Jewish people, so yes, given that terrible choice, it’d be better to have been black than to have been Jewish in Nazi Germany.

I get the question but, IMHO as always, the Devil’s in the details. Jumping from “any given place in Europe” right to “Nazi Germany” is kinda problematic. “Any given place in Europe” might include Nazi occupied territory with antisemitic Partisans, suddenly being a Black G.I. sounds a lot better that being a Jew.

It might be better to have been Black than to have been Jewish in Nazi Germany given only those details. But being a Jew even in Nazi Germany you still have at least some chance of passing as a Gentile, being Black . . . not so much. So maybe it’d be better to be Jewish than to be Black in Nazi Germany. Being the worst treated of the POWs still might be better odds than being a Jew in a concentration camp or worse a death camp.

I’m entirely unsure what the actually worst case would have been. In the end “Hard cases make bad law”.

Mostly, I hate not fighting the hypothetical when the hypothetical just begs to be fought.

CMC fnord!