Why isn’t the Catholic Church shocked by the current Pope’s liberal position on so many topics? Do they regret their decision? I would expect them to be fainting over everything he has done since he rose to the position. Do they believe G-d is telling him these things, like an 1040EZ form to annulment? Sounds absurd and cheapens the sanctity of marriage.
He’s not really said anything that contradict Church doctrine. He’s basically just said “we’re not going to be hardline asses anymore, and put the focus back on love.”
The hardliners just aren’t as big a part of the Church as they used to be. It seems the majority welcome the change in tone, as long as the substance is the same.
Because there’s nothing liberal about anything Francis has said, relative to actual doctrine. He’s refocused the discussion to the parts where the Catholic church is on the left rather than the ones where they’re on the right, and called out some hypocrisy, but he hasn’t made any statements that were new/against doctrine.
I’m not sure about a lot of this yet; and not being Roman Catholic I’m looking at it all as an outsider. Of course this is good news for the RC population in the US and much of Europe. But my curiosity will be more how the various Bishops around the world react and/or use these policy changes/clarifications. Check the Pew Institute figures here:
Unless the Latin American and African Catholic population and Bishops decide to go along with this more liberal movement, these changes could mean little and swing back in the future.
Trust me, soft is exactly the way you want the Catholic church to be. When they get hard is when they get into trouble.
Francis is apparently appointing non-Europeans to positions in the central church hiearchy in unprecedented numbers. At least some commentators think that in terms of economic policy and advocacy for the poor that move is likely to yank the church leftwards. But in terms of social policy it is just as likely to pull the church to the right or at least hold it there, as Jon-Paul’s unexpectedly long reign left a legacy hiearchy stacked with social conservatives. So it is probably going to be a mixed bag, but probably will shake some things up long-term.
I disagree: A soft Catholic church is one which is beholden to its most vocal reactionaries, the ones who are least engaged with the outside world and most engaged in church politics. A hard Catholic church is one which is strong enough to stand up to that group, which will kill it and preserve the bones in a reliquary if given the chance, and create new dogma in step with human rights and human dignity. So, yes, by that measure, today’s Catholic church is quite soft, and has been for a long time.
I think you missed the thrust of that poster’s meaning. It was quite a penetrating argument.
It is in Latin America that the teología de la liberación was strongest, not to mention Pope himself is Latin American (Argentinian, but I guess I have to forgive that…). I think those appointed by the preceding Pope may be more resistant to change, but I also believe a lot of places in Latin America and a lot of priests (though not necessarily those in power) will welcome the changes.
Also, I second (or third) the fact that he hasn’t really changed the views of the church, he has just changed the focus a bit.
Not a whoosh so much as a sploosh?
He’s actually getting quite tough. It’s just that he’s getting tough in different areas than his immediate predecessors.
As has been said, he has doctrinally speaking changed nothing fundamental, his reforms are of pastoral focus. “Let’s not be hardline asses about it” is a good description. (Standardizing and streamlining the annulment process just made sense, too many instances of some Catholics being more equal than others as things stood. ) Just that some people tend to lose it when any institution plays contrary to their expected script. I’m with Tamerlane in that the greater influence of non-europeans will strengthen the already progressive socioeconomic lean of the pastoral mission but may reflect still relatively conservative socioculturally inclined congregations snd hierarchs. (Latin American secular leftists have something of a mixed record on that themselves, no reason to expect the clergy to be different),
If course I’d be lying if I denied finding pleasure in asking some of the hardliners, what do they think of “cafeteria” catholicism or obedience to the Holy Father now?
Jinx, two things. First, are you Catholic? Lots of people have pointed mocking fingers for years without any rebuke and I’m trying to figure if you are inside and confused or outside and just asking for a laugh.
I still remember the ZBT guys at Rutgers singing
“…And we’ll know you are dot-heads by your dirt,
by your dirt
And we’ll know you are dot-heads by your dirt”
on Ash Wednesday from their porch on College Avenue back in the day.
Jinx, I’m long-lapsed but a good part of that was because there was a lot of … how should I say it… “Junior Modding” in the congregations? The Holier than Thous made the place a painful mess and a horror show to be at and seemed to take [del]smug[/del] righteous delight
in the trouble they’d cause among people who weren’t as strict as they were. A lot of people left the church rather than deal with them (myself included).
If the church can be more accepting of people, then it can adapt to the changing world and be a part of it and not just a relic of history.
Also, whoever said divorce was easy? Lessening cruelty and having compassion towards people during the worst crisis of their lives… this is a bad thing?
I understand the sanctity of marriage just as others may understand the cruelty of marriage. All of this is at a grass roots former member level though… and I’m sure you really want to know whether the Cardinals, Bishops, Monsignors and Priests are ready to stage a coup.
I’m not sure that there is anyone here who could answer that.
No kidding!
In addition to what others have said, I wonder if some of the lack of criticism is due to the shift in perception of the Church by others. For a while nearly every headline about the Church involved incidents of child rape or the cover-up of child rape. Now the headlines are about how the Pope is taking climate change seriously and is discussing income inequality.
For the record, I’m not a Catholic. But even if I was a conservative Catholic who didn’t entirely like the new Pope’s focus, I’d still appreciate having the Church getting significant positive press for a while.
When you say “the Catholic Church,” who do you mean exactly?
There are certainly Catholics within the Church who are critical of Pope Francis.
While some Catholics are getting the vapors, the Pope isn’t chosen by picking a name out of a hat. I’d expect that many, if not most, if not all in the higher ranks of the Vatican hierarchy had a good idea of who was being made Pope when they picked him.
Back when JP2 was Pope, I asked my dad how he reconciled the Pope’s anti-war positions with his own hawkishness. “Son, you’ve got to understand that, while the Pope is a good man, he’s not really very up on international relations.”
Quite true.
He was runner-up when his predecessor Benedict was elected Pope, and Benedict had been runner-up in the previous papal election. So most of the Cardinals have had a pretty good idea for a while now. They probably even have a fair idea of who the next Pope will be, and how he is likely to rule. (Assuming this one doesn’t last as long as JPII)