Childless by choice?

[Spydergirl_87]

I'm a married woman in a stable relationship. My husband has a good, secure job. We own our own home. But still...I have no desire to have kids. Maybe I'll change my mind in the future, you never know. Does this make me strange? I enjoy other people's children, I just don't have the desire to have one of my own. I like my life the way it is NOW.

Realtives and friends have been bugging me for years about this. "You're not getting any younger, dear." (I'm 31.) "But you're so GOOD with kids, they love you!" (True. But that's because I only have to deal with them for a few hours, not 24/7 in my own home. I like the 'favorite auntie' role I have now - I play with them and paint and read with/to them, love 'em and spoil them, and then go home. They love it )

Are any Dopers out there childless by choice? Did you ever regret your decision as you grew older and it wasn't an option anymore?

And on the other hand...can anyone tell me why having children is such a "wonderful" thing?

[bibliophage]

This is a fine topic for IMHO. But it is not a general question, so I'll move it.

bibliophage
moderator, GQ

[Athena]

I started a similiar thread a few months ago. You might want to check it out here.

[xcheopis]

Fourteen women of my aquaintence have no desire for children. They are all over 25 (three are over 40) and have yet to even feel a spark of maternal urge, much less give in to one.

Myself, I'm over 30 and my desire for children decreases by the year. Since I started my teens having zero desire, I'm now in the negative numbers. Not only do I not want children of my own, I think some of them shouldn't have been born.

[QuickSilver]

It's an entirely personal and valid choice to make. Please don't feel like you need to appologize for making it. On the other hand, some friends, family and strangers will want an explanation. You may have to explain it several times to those with particularly thick skulls but whatever you do, please don't use "The world is overpopulated already" argument. It just isn't smart.

Originally posted by Spydergirl_87
And on the other hand...can anyone tell me why having children is such a "wonderful" thing?

Oof. That's a tough one. You have to have kids of your own to really know. Having young nieces and nephews that are really close and that you love very much still does not scratch the surface of it. It's a parent thing.

[cher3]

No, no one can tell you why having children is such a wonderful thing. Time was when I might have tried, but after participating in a number of similar threads, I've changed my mind.

You grew up on this planet. You were a child and presumably well-loved and wanted by your parents.(Please correct this assumption if I'm wrong.) You've experienced what is was like to be part of a family. I guess I just don't understand the question any more. If you need someone to explain to you why you might want children, than you don't want children.

I apologise in advance if this comes off as too curt. Anyway, as you'll see you are in very good company and you should feel free to tell relatives and friends to mind their own business.

[Mauvaise]

When I was ~15 or so, I stated quite firmly that I didn't want children. I was told by everyone "you'll change your mind when you get older".

Ok, I'm older now (31) and I *still* don't want children. Fortunately my mother gave up and my aunt doesn't bug me about it anymore.

I think the look of horror that crosses my face when I say "no" to the question "Do you have children?" stops most people from asking why.

My main reason: I don't want the responsibility. My cats are enough to take care of. At least with them if I want to go away for a long weekend I just leave out enough food and water for a few days and leave. Can't do that with kids (at least not real young ones ). Besides I like my free time to be MINE (or maybe sharing it with an SO).

People may condemn me for being too selfish or whatever, but I reply to them that they should be glad I decided this before having kids and completely messing them up.

Besides which: I don't have a maternal gene in my body. I don't get all gooey over babies, and I certainly have no desire to hold or (gods forbid) smell them.

[Interrobang!?]

Originally posted by Spydergirl_87 And on the other hand...can anyone tell me why having children is such a "wonderful" thing? [/b]

If it were up to me, my wife and I would remain childless by choice. But I married her knowing that she wants to have kids, and I agreed that she was worth it. (And, at 31, she's still more than happy being just the two of us, so she may change her mind.)

I'm sure I'll be a good parent -- it's not like I hate children, or couldn't handle the responsibility. And I don't deny that the idea must be appealing to a lot of people, and a lot of people find parenthood rewarding. But the idea of having children has never really interested me. (On the other hand, the chance to screw up my kids in a way that's unique to my wife and me is a little tempting.)

I have to admit that almost every reason I've heard people give for having children ends up making the idea less attractive. They'll change my life around? They're like a little piece of my heart walking around outside my body? I'll learn the real meaning of priorities? Geccch!

[Corrvin]

It seems to me like "you'd know why kids are so great if you had them" is pretty specious reasoning. Kinda smacks of that parallel argument, "You're only a lesbian because you don't know what you're missing."

Not that being a parent isn't a life-altering decision; not that children aren't most of them fun and interesting people; but you can live a fulfilled and happy life without having a child, just as you can without skydiving, learning to drive a car, or snorkeling. I'd say having a drivers' license and a car is one of the most life-altering things that's ever happened to me. Maybe if I had a child someday, it'd bump my drivers' license down the list a bit.

Maybe we should just accept that some people absolutely adore children, especially their own, and really enjoy raising them, and some people don't. The saddest thing in the world is a person with a child who never wanted to be a parent. They don't understand "why kids are so great" and they DO have them. It's not selfish not to have kids...it's a wonderful case of being aware of your own desires.

Corr

[matt_mcl]

Actually, as a c.b.c. person (well, a future c.b.c. person), I quite agree with the comment, at least as posed, "If you have to ask why someone would want children, you don't want children." Anything that would make me want to put up with diapers, tantrums, school, constant worry, constant nagging, and the unbelievable expense - not to mention everything I'd have to go through as a gay man, such as court battles over adoption and what have you - would have to be an extremely powerful biopsychological urge, and I'm quite sure I would notice it.

I've an absolute horror of the excess of responsibility involved in having a child, and that doesn't make me an irresponsible person. Quite the opposite! Not making choices that confer responsibilities for which one is unprepared is very responsible.

All of which is not to say that I won't be the world's most doting uncle to my brother's kids. As long as I'm guaranteed of their being taken away at the end of the day, and as long as I'm entitled to spoil them rotten, it works for me. But we have a little ways yet to go, seeing as how my brother is 17.

[caircair]

Yes. In fact, I'd made that decision even before I married Spouse. Fortunately, he felt the same way (for differing reasons.)

We currently have 2 nephews and 3 nieces between us, not to mention a number of cousins, etc. and love them to pieces. But we're also glad to be able to say "Go find Mommy" when we've had enough.

Besides, for me, raising a husband is hard enough!

[invisibleOLDlady]

oh crap...someone put "over 25" like that's old. Am I old? I just turned 25, I don't geel matured yet. Actually, I think I want a kid in a year or two. At least before I'm 30. Never thought I'd say that.

[invisibleOLDlady]

why can't I edit my own messages? I put a 'g' instead of an 'f' in "feel" and now I can't fix it!

[Legomancer]

My wife and I decided not to have children, as have two couples we know. It's a valid choice, and there's nothign wrong with making that decision.

Be prepared, though, to be called immature and selfish for the decision. I'm not sure what the reaosning behind "Selfish" is, but the immature part is people saying that you'll eventually change your mind.

And honestly, I personally don't think you need a reason. I thik you should have justifaction for WANTING kids, not for not wanting them, since the former choice should require a pretty good thought process behind it.

[pesch]

Originally posted by Corrvin
It seems to me like "you'd know why kids are so great if you had them" is pretty specious reasoning. Kinda smacks of that parallel argument, "You're only a lesbian because you don't know what you're missing."

Actually, that's what happened to me (having kids, not being a lesbian).

I've got 3 kids now, and it's wonderful most of the time being with them. The rest of the time, it's horrible.

And, yes, it's been an incredible challenge as well. I was the youngest in my family, and I wasn't brought up around infants, so the whole pregnancy / delivery / baby raising was totally unfamiliar territority, and there were times when I was paralyzed with fright over what's happening (and certainly my wife had those moments as well). But now that we're past the last baby stage (no more diapers, hurray!), it's fun seeing them grow up, exploring the world and, maybe, having some small effect on their lives in ways that weren't apparent in my upbringing. It's like having a second childhood.

But without my wife's encouragement (e.g., "Dear, we WILL have children"), I wouldn't have gone through it otherwise; and that now that they're here, I'm glad we did.

And, yes, I fully agree with the belief that it's your own damn business whether you have kids or not.

[Cyndar]

I am childless by choice. I don't have a maternal bone in my body. The thought of being pregnant horrifies me. Sometimes I wonder what it would be like, purely from a scientific point of view, but the feeling passes.

[toshirodragon]

I placed my first child for adoption. So I have heard all the selfish arguements and some really rude ones about not loving her. Of course I loved her I let her live to be born didnt I? Okay that was slightly off topic but still.. I have done both sides: not wanting kids and wanting kids. I have one and he is PLENTY! (oh good there he goes throwing his super ball in the house again) Personally I think the worst thing is having children because its "the thing to do"
If you don't want them don't have them..period. Lots of dead kids out there coz someone didn't want them or got tired of them......

[Nefarious Chipmunk]

Personally, I feel that the decision not to have kids is a very resposible, and mature decision. For gods sake, if you don't want kids, please don't have them. We have far to many children in this world that are unwanted as it is. If you know you don't want them, then more power to you.

I certainly wouldn't give you a hard time about it, and I am not certain I understand why anyone would. Just because I have something that I like doesn't mean that I am going think that my friends are weird or immature or whatever, just because it isn't for them.

[kiz]

I think it's more responsible to be childless by choice rather than having children "by accident" or having children just because everyone else does. At age 40, I'm still "on the fence" regarding children. It's not because I'm not maternal -- I taught for a few years and sometimes wished I could adopt most of the kids in my class -- nor a fear of pregnancy, but I simply have never had any burning desire to have children. What I find strange is that a lot of my girlfriends cannot understand that. They look at me as though I had 10 heads or something, and I'm like, "What's the problem?"

Another reason why I'm "on the fence" is witnessing what my married friends go through in raising their children. One friend has 4 children ranging in age from 12 to 6, and her entire life revolves around them to the extent that if you try to have a conversation with her about anything NOT having to do with her family, she's totally lost. Her self-sacrifice scares me to death. I don't want to lose who I am because of my child/children, but what if it's unavoidable? Another friend, an accomplished computer consultant, has a 2-year old son who demands her attention to the extent that it's painful to visit her. I'm not saying that she should neglect him because of me or anyone else visiting, but it's difficult to maintain adult conversation with her during those times.

My age, too, plays a part. I always said that if I didn't have a child by the age of 35, then I didn't want one at all. I know that there are many first-time 40+ mothers out there, but having grown up with older parents (mine were both in their early 40s when I was born), there was more of a generation gap dividing myself from them. My mother, in particular, never understood why I wanted to be just like my friends in what I wore, ate, and did. I wasn't allowed to play popular music on my record player, nor did she understand the lingo my peers and I used. Suffice to say, it was painful growing up...

My SO wants children. I know he'll be a super dad. We've discussed my ambivilence many times. He thinks I'm just plain scared. Maybe I am, but that still doesn't push me off the fence one way or another...

[Stoid]

No kids here. I'm 43 and I had my tubes tied 5 years ago.

I never wanted children, and I was always clear on what it meant to have them.

In fact, I am the baby in a family of FIVE women, and NONE of us has kids. (I'm willing to bet that we might be the only such family on earth).

Kids are a mind-boggling responsibility and I think it's insane to even think about having them unless you despertely want them. The hassle, expense, work and sacrifice (assuming you want to be a GOOD parent, and not just any ol' parent) are huge, and most people don't really realize that until they are already parents.

Be ok with your choice. You are not alone, and it sounds like it's the smart choice for you.

stoid

[MsWhatsit]

People can be so lame. I want kids, am currently pregnant, and am totally okay with the massive responsibility and sacrifice that having kids entailed. Having grown up in a large family and witnessed a lot of my friends having kids, I have a fairly good idea of what it all entails.

That having been said, I completely, 100%, respect the decision of anyone who chooses not to have children. What are these people thinking, who accuse you of selfishness for not wanting kids?!? Obviously you know what you want from your life, and children are not a part of that. That is totally fine. Anyone who craps on someone else's decision has issues of their own to work out, in my opinion. Just don't listen to them.

[The Great Gazoo]

If I told you how many relationships I have lost (wonderful women, all of them) because I never want to have any children, you wouldn't believe me.

It's really been tough to stick by my guns, especially with 2 of the women.

[Tranquilis]

posted by Spydergirl_87
And on the other hand...can anyone tell me why having children is such a "wonderful" thing?

Sorry, no can do. You simply don't have the frame of reference. It would be like telling a blind person about color, or a fish about snow. You can hear everything we say, and even believe it all, but it's something that has to be experienced to be understood. Don't take that as a slam. Your choice is valid as any other, and I'd be the last to say you're wrong. Your choice is just different from the one I made, neither better or worse.

posted by Corvin
It seems to me like "you'd know why kids are so great if you had them" is pretty specious reasoning. Kinda smacks of that parallel argument...

Actually, that is exactly correct. You'll never know until you do have them. It's a leap of faith into a really scary place, and only by taking the leap can you know what awaits you. OTOH, if you choose not to take that leap, who can say you're wrong? Not I, that's for sure.

posted by matt_mcl
I quite agree with the comment, at least as posed, "If you have to ask why someone would want children, you don't want children." Anything that would make me want to put up with diapers, tantrums, school, constant worry, constant nagging, and the unbelievable expense - not to mention everything I'd have to go through as a gay man, such as court battles over adoption and what have you - would have to be an extremely powerful biopsychological urge, and I'm quite sure I would notice it.

It's like being in the deep end of the pool. It doesn't matter if you jumped on your own, or someone threw you in. Either you sink, or you swim. If you swim (and most do), it's a lot of fun, and you're glad you're there. If you sink, well, that's a different story...

If you want to stay on the veranda and watch everyone else splashing about, well, that's cool, too. Nothing wrong with being a doting uncle, and I'm sure your brother will appreciate you being there. God knows that my sister (not talking about hedra, wonderful as she is, but one of the others) and her partner are wonderful to have around, and they are as much a fixture in my daughter's life as my wife or I.

kiz, you don't "lose who you were", you grow new aspects to your person. The old you is still there, but may no longer be recognizable due to all the new growth. That said, new growth isn't always good, or desireable. Age is less important the desire and ability. My FIL is 44 years older than my wife, but he is a fine parent. OTOH, My second youngest sister's ex is a year younger than she, and has proven to be just crap in the father department (not by my sister, thank God!).

While we're pointing out old threads, let's not forget this one.

[Lionors]

Sounds like I'm not alone in my crisis of conscience on this topic.

My husband has two children from a previous marriage and is a fantastic father. His children are wonderful; in fact, they're the kind of kids that make you want to have kids. I used to teach (and actually chose and liked junior high students) and I generally like children -- that is children, not babies. I figure he's got some pretty darn good genes if he could turn out kids as good as he's got with the psychotic cow they have for a mother, so we'd probably hatch a pretty good one if we chose to try.

OTOH...we have just recently managed to get custody of his children. They're still great kids...but we're already having some problems adjusting to the fact that we never, ever seem to have time alone anymore. No walking around the house in whatever I want to wear (or not wear), no impulsive (OR loud) sex, no skipping out on making breakfast/lunch/supper or at least making sure food's available, household chores (even with their help) doubled or trebled, not to mention expenses... to be honest, as much as we love each other (and we do, very much) this has placed a great strain on us and quite possibly, has destroyed a part of our relationship I liked very much. It'll be eight years before we have our life back again, and even then, I don't know how much of it, if any, will be left by then.

Now, as I mentioned, I have never, ever, EVER, thought babies were cute (although I get downright embarrassingly gooshy over baby animals). Their constant drooling grosses me out immensely, they always smell of crap or sour milk, their screams affect me like fingernails going down a chalkboard and the mere thought of changing a diaper (which I have yet to ever learn how to do or want to do) makes me literally cringe. Bleh. I absolutely do not think my opinion will change just because it's my kid doing the crapping -- especially if I end up with diabetes, gaining massive amounts of weight, having stretch marks over 90% of my body or having my breasts stretch to China as a result of said pregnancy.

On the flip side, I do like kids once they get past the idiot lump stage and actually become small people, and as an only child now minus a mother who was nonetheless brought up in a strong family heritage tradition, there is a distinct sense of comfort to me about the thought of continuing the chain.

So basically....damned if I know what to tell ya, but I do sympathize.

[Cat Whisperer]

For another aspect of the baby decision, here's another related thread.

You know, there's so many factors that go into making this decision. I was about 95% certain that I didn't want kids, then I talked to my best friend last week who has an 18 month old son, and hearing about the strain that the baby has put on her marriage has tipped my balance to 100% certain I don't want them. I want to marry my fiance and have fun with him until we die. I don't want a baby to interfere with my fun, and seeing as I'm darn near 35 now, I don't anticipate being thrilled by the life changes a baby would bring. I have a whole list of reasons that I don't want babies; I have no reason to have kids. Except maybe for that 'comfort in my old age' thing, and they invented cats for a reason, you know.

(Thanks for linking to my old thread, Tranquilis. I was just going to do that myself.)

[sailor]

My feelings exactly

[Tranquilis]

I'm seeing a lot of statments about "strain on the relationship", "don't want to stop having fun", and "messy diapers".

These are not necessarily so (well, the diapers are ), and in most cases are not so. If these are the reasons you're giving for not having children, then you're working from a false assumption. Children are more than sufficient compensation, for most people, for all the changes in their life. The fun doesn't stop, nor (In my experience, and in that of every married couple I know) does sex, unless something else is wrong. Children are the world's best magnifying glasses. They will magnify every aspect of your relationship with your SO and your life, or if you're single, doubly magnify every aspect of your life.

If your relationship isn't solid, then a child will open up the cracks for all the world to see. If there's something about your sex life that is lacking, then a child will bring that right out. You'll get less sex for a while, but that changes, and it's frequently better afterwards, if you've got all the kinks figured out now (pun intended). If your relationship is working, is solid and trusting, children will weld that bond into an unbreakable block. If you have trouble handling you finances, or have a cash flow issue, you can be damned sure that having a child will rub your nose in it. If you've planned well, know how to use your money wisely, it'll show. Dirty diapers become a non-issue when love is involved, and oddly enough, babies come with training poop. It doesn't start to smell until after you've had a week or so to learn what you're doing. Very quickly you learn to handle human messes with as little issue as a nurse. It's frequently unpleasant, but you just handle it. The fun doesn't stop, unless you don't know how to really have fun. It just changes shape.

Now, if you don't want to have children, as I've said, that's fine, and it's perfectly valid choice. I bless those who are childless by choice, as they're contributing to the society my daughter will grow up in, while not placing additional strain on it's resources. Just don't kid yourselves on your reasons. The most common reasons I hear stated are completely specious from a parent's more experienced perspective. I realize that you don't, can't have that perspective, but you owe it to yourselves to cut through any excuses and really examine your decision, it's causes, and it's consequences. Afterwards, you'll have the peace of mind that comes from knowing your mind, and will never have cause to regret your decision, one way or another.

[tavalla]

I used to get severely annoyed when people would say to me, "You'll change your mind about having children when you get older." Not bloody likely. Don't get me wrong, I do like kids. I've been told that I'd make a pretty good mother, and my own family background is probably one of the happiest on earth.

It's not a fear of responsibility that stops me. It's not fear that I couldn't be a good parent. It isn't even the fact that I'm pretty much - and voluntarily - married to my job, which sees me moving all over the country every couple of years, and working ungodly hours. It's simply that the call isn't there. Not only is the biological clock not ticking, I don't think it even existed, as far as I'm concerned anyway.

[Dangerosa]

Originally posted by toshirodragon
I placed my first child for adoption. So I have heard all the selfish arguements and some really rude ones about not loving her. Of course I loved her I let her live to be born didnt I? Okay that was slightly off topic but still.. I have done both sides: not wanting kids and wanting kids. I have one and he is PLENTY! (oh good there he goes throwing his super ball in the house again) Personally I think the worst thing is having children because its "the thing to do"
If you don't want them don't have them..period. Lots of dead kids out there coz someone didn't want them or got tired of them......

Complete hijack.....

I'm an adoptive mom. Thanks. Yesterday my son turned three. I thought alot about his birthmom as I always do around birthdays and holidays. I'm alwasy grateful, and always sad for her loss which has brought me so much happiness. I will likely never have the chance to tell her this.

[toshirodragon]

Thanks Dangerosa... you should try to find her if it is at all feasible. I KNOW she will be grateful to hear you say "thanks"
Now onward! Those of you who complain about not getting any sex loud, impulsive or whatever just have NO freakin imagination. My hubby and I have a boom box that we use when we have sex coz I am well RATHER loud! Our son knows that Mommy and Daddy time is off limits for him and we will wrestle to his hearts content afterwards. And clothing is optional at our house.. we have naked bodies and he has seen them.
And anyone using the excuse "well my friend does this" should just be slapped! If you don't like how your friend is raising her kids DON'T DO IT THAT WAY! I can still talk about all the things I knew before I had a kid. I still read and write and do all the things I used to do.. in fact because I have a child I am learning more about science than I ever knew before because of his inquisitive sponge like little mind.
If you don't want kids FINE DON'T HAVE THEM, but don't let other people make that decision for you! Look inside yourself and ask who am I, what would I do...

[Ferggie]

I have a dog, and he's difficult enough....

Lionors, I have an opposite view...I like babies. I like them up until the point where they start talking and get mouthy. And as the oldest sibling, I never saw it get better with the Ferglings or their peers...until just recently. Fourteen years of waiting for a reasonable person to evolve out of a brat is way too long. And even still, I have the misfortune to work with a 17-year-old who makes me think of Verucca Salt from the Willy Wonka movie every time she opens her mouth. I never thought at the tender age of 23 I'd gripe about how much I hate teenagers.

The impossible thought of a baby that stays a baby (a la Maggie Simpson) sounds like a good one to me, until I think about my cousin Jason, the closest thing to an eternal baby that could actually happen. My cousin Jason was profoundly retarded. By this I mean he couldn't communicate other than to cry, couldn't sit up, couldn't grasp things. About all he could do was roll over and look around. Had to be spoon-fed baby food, lived in diapers. He lived this way for 17 years. And I saw how hard it was on my ever-patient aunt and uncle.

I am also concerned about the population's negative affect on resources and the quality of the overall planet. If I ever do change my mind, I'm adopting. (Might be a necessity in my case, but then they told my mom she couldn't have kids, either.)

[Mielikki]

Originally posted by Tranquilis
The most common reasons I hear stated are completely specious from a parent's more experienced perspective. I realize that you don't, can't have that perspective, but you owe it to yourselves to cut through any excuses and really examine your decision, it's causes, and it's consequences. Afterwards, you'll have the peace of mind that comes from knowing your mind, and will never have cause to regret your decision, one way or another.

Originally posted by toshirodragon
If you don't want kids FINE DON'T HAVE THEM, but don't let other people make that decision for you! Look inside yourself and ask who am I, what would I do...

I would say that goes double, nay, triple for anyone considering having children. That's what irks me; questions directed at childless people, and moreso the arguments following the reponses, seem to assume that people that don't have children just plain never thought about it. Trust me, if you've made it to 30 (and probably a lot younger) without having children, you have thought about it. Especially if you are a woman. Believe me.

I know neither of you probably meant the statements that way, but this is what people without children hear all the time, and it does sometimes sound like parents think we just woke up one morning and said 'ya know, think I'll either get a tattoo, or not ever have children. Think I'll go with not ever have children.'

I sometimes get the impression that the reverse is not true though; I mean, I know that many parents arrived at that state through lots of thoughtful consideration, but it seems a lot of them get there because it never occured to them not to, or they just, uh, turned up pregnant. Oops.

If someone ends up not being a parent because they didn't think it through, I don't see it as any great tragedy. OTO, if someone ends up with a child, and they didn't think their decision through, then gods help them both. I would hope that anyone who does decide to become a parent has given long hours of thought to the responsibility it entails, and is certain that it's what they want. The societal default is set to becoming a parent (someone said something about 'having a kid to complete the set') and it generally requires more thought to go against the norm that to go with it, after all.

Originally posted by Tranquilis
The fun doesn't stop, unless you don't know how to really have fun. It just changes shape.

Now, waitaminute. This almost seems to say that anyone who was stuck in a situation where they didn't enjoy being a parent (and they are out there) just doesn't know how to have fun. I worry sometimes, and stories like I've read here, that people who don't want to have kids have enough trouble being respected for their decisions. And that people who haven't actually thought about it may never be exposed to the idea since it gets margianalized as it is. Maybe some of the parents not having fun out there really do know how to have fun, just not as parents. I'm not meaning to pick on ya, but I just think that we shouldn't brush off people's concerns with 'well, if you really know how to have fun/have a stable relationship/etc. then having a child won't make a difference.' That almost makes it sound like a dare- and if it doesn't turn out to be the right decision, the parents just weren't good enough people.

[Moirai]

Originally posted by Lionors
Now, as I mentioned, I have never, ever, EVER, thought babies were cute (although I get downright embarrassingly gooshy over baby animals). Their constant drooling grosses me out immensely, they always smell of crap or sour milk, their screams affect me like fingernails going down a chalkboard and the mere thought of changing a diaper (which I have yet to ever learn how to do or want to do) makes me literally cringe. Bleh. I absolutely do not think my opinion will change just because it's my kid doing the crapping -- especially if I end up with diabetes, gaining massive amounts of weight, having stretch marks over 90% of my body or having my breasts stretch to China as a result of said pregnancy.

On the flip side, I do like kids once they get past the idiot lump stage and actually become small people...

Damn, tell me how you really feel!

I can understand your comments, but thank God they don't apply to me! My son was never an idiot lump, actually. He didn't talk at 1 month or anything, but was incredibly aware and alert, and stayed that way. He didn't drool, even when teething, he didn't smell like crap or sour milk because I bathed him regularly, and diapers don't really bother me. I also never got gestational diabetes, didn't gain a ton of weight, and have very few stretch marks. And yes, my tits are still in the vicinity of my upper chest.

What I mean is- don't believe everything you see, read or hear. Every pregnancy, birth and child is unique.

Having said that, I applaud your decision to make a personal choice. No-one should ever have kids just because "people do."

[Cat Whisperer]

Just for the record, my decision to remain childless was arrived at after much thought and deliberation (and discussion with my fiance), and I have many, many reasons to not have children. The ones I gave here are only a couple of them; some are intensely personal, others less so, but like Mielikki said, you don't make it to 35 without searching your soul about this. That's part of what makes it so hard to take when people blithely tell you, "You should have kids. You'd make a great parent/You'd love them once you have them." It would be best if people, when hearing someone is not planning a family, assumed that the cbc person has done a lot of thinking, and has plenty of reasons for their decision, and respect the validity of that choice. After all, us cbc people don't go around demanding reasons from parents about why they decided to have children, do we?
(n.b. This is not directed at anybody involved in this discussion; everyone here has been admirably well-behaved on this often very hot subject.)

[toshirodragon]

Guess What!? Ladies I was 30 big 30 when I had my son, so I know all about questioning yourself. I also never got gestational diabetes, have few stretch marks, tits on my chest, and I LOST WEIGHT during my pregnancies. Yes two of them, as I mentioned before I have one daughter growing up somewhere else because I couldnt handle the responsibility at 27!! of raisng her.
Also I am very offended to her my son indirectly called an idiot lump! He never was and he never smelled of crap or sour milk even though he was refluxive! I bathed him, changed him kept him clean. He was always bright eyed and responsive.
I personally dont care whether you have kids or not. God knows this planet doesnt need tons more people. Anyway I think I am finished with the conversation... I am going to go play with my "idiot lump of a child" who hasnt learned yet how to call names.

[Lionors]

Yeep.

I was not under ANY circumstances intending to insult anyone's baby. I'd never be that mean. Sorry if it came across that way. Please understand that I am speaking in generalizations based upon the contact I've had with infants (not much and not sought out) and not specifically about ANYONE'S child. Hope that's clearer.

"Idiot lump stage" is actually a term I borrowed from my cousin; she has a child who is almost 2. (I think the actual quote was, "I'm so GLAD he's out of the idiot lump stage and can actually TALK to me instead of just SCREAMING!")Suffice it to say, she didn't enjoy his babyhood one iota.

I'm really glad other folks have had positive experiences with pregnancy. EJsGirl, I fully agree with you -- pregnancy is different for everyone. I wish I could say with certainty that I'd have a decent shot at a positive one.

In my case, I'm 35, fortunately in good health and decent shape, but with a family medical history that simply stinks. Both sides of my family are riddled with diabetes; my mother died at 49 after 8 years of being on dialysis -- and for two of those years, she was so weak that my father retired and I quit my job and we alternated staying with her 24/7, in 12 hour shifts. Her kidney failure was caused by untreated high blood pressure...which stemmed from real problems losing weight, which started...you guessed it...after pregnancy. Other women on her side of the family have the same problem. The stretch marks, figure changes, everything else -- all par for the course on her side. So to start with, having a baby, for me, means possibly ruining my health, which is something I don't want.

I actually find it hard to reconcile how I feel about babies with the way I feel about children. The reason I worded my opinion as strongly as I did was...well...that really is the way the babies I have come into contact with make me feel. It's a feeling somewhere between panic and extreme aversion because a) I don't want to hurt the feelings of the adult with the child but b) I'm a lousy liar. Once I get past a few polite compliments, I'm rather at a loss as to what to do. I couldn't tell you how many times, though, that people have tried to get me to pick up their baby, cuddle said baby, feed said baby, have the baby kiss me...and I just have no urge whatsoever to do any of those things. Moreover, I never know how to get out of it without just sounding and/or being crass, which I won't do. If I can't beat a hasty retreat, I do what minimal things I can and flee at the earliest opportunity (generally with some sour milk stuck on me somewhere).

With kids however...and by kids I mean about 2 and up... I get an incredible kick out of seeing how their minds work and how they see the world. They're a lot of fun to be with and to work with. If teaching paid decently, I'd still be doing it and very happily.

Hope that makes some things a bit clearer. I wouldn't have continued blathering about my views on the subject, but I'd rather do that than have a misunderstanding hurt someone's feelings.

[vanilla]

I used to want to be childless.
All my life, i wanted nothing to do wtih kids. Never babysat.
Didn't think they were cute.
I used to wake up every morning happy I wasn't pregnant. Even when i was a virign.
Then I married my husband and everything changed.
I loved him and wanted his child. It had to be his, even though I risked my life to have his child.
It was total baby love when my son was born.
I took to it right away, with no training.
So...someday you actually *may* change your mind.
One never knows.

[Tranquilis]

I would hope that anyone who does decide to become a parent has given long hours of thought to the responsibility it entails, and is certain that it's what they want. The societal default is set to becoming a parent (someone said something about 'having a kid to complete the set') and it generally requires more thought to go against the norm that to go with it, after all.

I would hope so, too, but the biological fact is that humans are designed to reproduce, and will do so. Society as a whole reflects that fact, and being childless, for whatever reason, is abnormal. That said, your reasons and choice are your own, and people shouldn't pry. OTOH, if you tell me about your reasons, be prepared for me to disect weak or fallacious reasoning. If you tell me that you don't want the financial burden, and that you've examined the costs, what can I say? Nothing. If you say that kids are too expensive, with no support to your argument, I'm going to suspect that you've not thought it through. If you tell me that you don't want the stretchmarks, I'm going to be curious if your figure is that important to you, or if something else is really the reason. Again, if you tell me you don't want the stretchmarks, and, yes, your figure really is that important to you, what can I say? Nothing. Medical reasons, such as stated elsewhere in this thread, get instant respect. Maybe that's hypocritical, maybe not, but if someone tells me that childbearing is dangerous to their health, the only thing they'll get from me is sympathetic acknowlegement.

So, to sum this part up: If you're childless, I've got nothing to say, one way or the other, and won't pry. If, however, you choose to discuss it with me, be prepared with all your ducks in a row. I won't slam you for not wanting children, but I'll take you to task for poor reasoning. I won't, in any case, interrogate you. _{I'll leave that for your family...}

Now, waitaminute. This almost seems to say that anyone who was stuck in a situation where they didn't enjoy being a parent (and they are out there) just doesn't know how to have fun.[/b]

Not quite. What I mean by that is if you can have fun, you can have fun with kids. I'm entirely sure that many parents are not having fun. My point is that "not having any fun" in and of itself is a poor reason. Now, if you look at the prospect of being a parent and see consequences that would make having fun highly unlikely, then those consequences are good reason to question being a parent, not the lack of fun they precipitaite. The fact is that babies change your life. If that change looks to be so stressful, risky, or damaging that your life would be joyless (and here is the place to consider the intangible, and for a non-parent, unquantifiable, joy of a child), then, by all means, please, don't be a parent.

Even if your reasons are as simple and seemingly selfish as "I want to be able to stay out all night partying", I'm perfectly cool about it, If you've thought that decision through completely.

All that said, I really appreciate childless people. All their hard work goes into building a society, a world, that is stronger and better than the one I grew up in, one that my daughter (and any siblings she may have) will grow up in. God Bless, and more power to you.

[matt_mcl]

[quote]Originally posted by Tranquilis

So, to sum this part up: If you're childless, I've got nothing to say, one way or the other, and won't pry. If, however, you choose to discuss it with me, be prepared with all your ducks in a row. I won't slam you for not wanting children, but I'll take you to task for poor reasoning.

Why, what would be the point? To convince them they really do want to have a child?

If someone is grasping at straws to say why they shouldn't have a child, obviously they don't want to have a child, and that's the firmest (non-medical) reason there is. How do you logically prove that someone who isn't royalty ought to have a child they don't want?

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally posted by Tranquilis
<snip>... the biological fact is that humans are designed to reproduce, and will do so. Society as a whole reflects that fact, and being childless, for whatever reason, is abnormal. <snip>

I think this is the crux of the biscuit for the whole child/no child debate - people who are cbc don't like being labelled and made to feel like they are "abnormal". Maybe not wanting children is going to become the norm as people live in an ever more crowded world. Maybe people being born without the urge to reproduce (as I am, myself, and as many others have stated they are in this thread) are an adaptation to overcrowded conditions, like the way rabbits become infertile when their populations become too large. Maybe in a few generations everyone will be born without the urge to reproduce, and the breeders will become the "abnormal" ones. Just some food for thought.

[Tranquilis]

[quote]Originally posted by matt_mcl

Originally posted by Tranquilis

Why, what would be the point? To convince them they really do want to have a child?

If someone is grasping at straws to say why they shouldn't have a child, obviously they don't want to have a child, and that's the firmest (non-medical) reason there is. How do you logically prove that someone who isn't royalty ought to have a child they don't want?

Nope. To take them to task for not thinking clearly. You've failed to read my posts carefully, and completely missed my point, if you think I'd try to convince someone to have a child they don't want. I'll gladly chew on someone for making such an basic decision based upon poor thinking, however. Same as I'd chew on anyone for making any life changing decision without careful thought.

[Tranquilis]

Interesting thought, featherlou. I dunno, but I'm thinking that if more people thought about the consequences of being a parent, and I mean carefully and with full reflection, we'd be in a better world. I'm not sure we'd have a smaller population (although likely so), but we'd certainly have a bunch of better prepaired of parents out there, and that would mean fewer unhappy, abused, and neglected children.

Y'all, please don't get me wrong: I'd chew on a prospective parent for poor reasoning more quickly then I'd pounce on anyone else. Parenthood is irreversable, while being childless is (mostly) not. Once someone has become a parent, they will never again be not a parent. However, once the irrevocable condition of parenthood has become a fact, it's mostly too late to chew on them for doing something thoughtless. I spent a number of years as a Naval Recruiter, and even more as an Petty Officer. I daily saw the consequences of poorly thought-out decisions, and frankly, it both pisses me off, and makes me sad.

Again, if you don't offer to discuss the subject with me, I'll not inquire, but if you broach the subject, I'll feel invited to discuss it.

[lieu]

For 37 years I enjoyed the single life and didn't need to get married but suddenly found the right woman and am now quite happy. I wasn't sure if I'd make a good Dad just because I kinda enjoy my time and pursuing my interests but knew my wife would like some so we started trying a year ago. Once. Boom. Nine months later a perfect little daughter was born.

Now I really wonder what I ever laughed about before. She's the most adorable, cute, happy, healthy, needy little poop maker I could ever imagine and I rush home every day just to see her and her mommy.

Not everybody's going to feel that way and that's perfectly okay. I understand the desire to stay childless perfectly well, I just hope they also understand why I'm so enamored with my baby.

[Mielikki]

Originally posted by Tranquilis
I would hope so, too, but the biological fact is that humans are designed to reproduce, and will do so. Society as a whole reflects that fact, and being childless, for whatever reason, is abnormal.

If by 'normal' you mean 'natural' (and it seems you do) society does not in any way reflect 'normal.' Dentistry is not 'normal'. Automobiles are not 'normal'. We are gifted with these big brains, and have the option of deciding not to subject ourselves to biology, which could mean getting a polio vaccine, typing on a computer, or foregoing parenthood. The urge to nurture can be as easily re-channeled into other avenues as the aggressive urge, which is 'normal' but not acted upon in the way our caveman ancestors acted on it. But, various cultures have varying viewpoints on appropriate reproducin', which tends to be compounded by education level. This is a whole other topic, though.

So, to sum this part up: If you're childless, I've got nothing to say, one way or the other, and won't pry. If, however, you choose to discuss it with me, be prepared with all your ducks in a row. I won't slam you for not wanting children, but I'll take you to task for poor reasoning. I won't, in any case, interrogate you. _{I'll leave that for your family...}

Fair enough; I am happy to hear that you would hold prospective parents to the same standard of thinking-through-fulness... I am just concerned because (as I mentioned) many parents seem to stumble into the role (accidental pregnancy) and then just run with it. And (as you mentioned) once you become a parent, you can't undo it. Not that I expect you to do something about it, it's sort of a general concern.

The problem I have when parents say 'I never wanted to be a parent, then I (found the right whoever) and decided to go for it, and every thing came up roses afterwards...' is not that I begrudge them their happiness; in fact I am thrilled that they had things turn out so well. It's the ones that don't post who feel like they took the same chance, then after the first blush of wonderfulness faded, they realized they'd made a huge mistake. Those parents hardly ever say a word, because society doesn't treat people that don't like children (especially their own) very kindly. So they grimly plow on.

Some of them do better than others, but I always wonder how many of them would have forgone parenthood if it was more socially acceptible. If their decision to be childless didn't subject them to familial (and from co-workers, strangers, etc) interrogation and endless questioning of their decision, or stories that seem to attempt to invalidate the reasons offered, e.g. 'well, I was childless too, but I changed my mind!' or 'I never got stretchmarks!' etc. Because that's what it feels like sometimes, even though you (general you) may not mean it that way. I mean, at what point do you let the childless just live with their decision without questioning the reasoning? Once someone becomes a parent, as you said it's too late to scrutinize their decision to parent. At what point to the childless get a break from the scrutiny?

What I mean by that is if you can have fun, you can ave fun with kids.

Again, not sure I agree. If you replace 'kids' with 'dogs' or 'dirt bikes' or 'stamp collecting' or 'dressing up like klingon Elvis and going to sci-fi conventions' then you'll see what I'm getting at. I think we agree more than disagree, though, we just have very different perspectives, obviously.

All that said, I really appreciate childless people. All their hard work goes into building a society, a world, that is stronger and better than the one I grew up in, one that my daughter (and any siblings she may have) will grow up in. God Bless, and more power to you.

I truly, deeply appreciate it. For my part, I want to leave this world a better place for her and the rest of the sproggen, and I will try my best to do so.

Originally posted by lieu
I understand the desire to stay childless perfectly well, I just hope they also understand why I'm so enamored with my baby.

Nobody has a problem with that; it's your job to be enamored with your baby. The problem is when you expect everyone else to be.

[Corrvin]

Tranquillis writes, <<I would hope so, too, but the biological fact is that humans are designed to reproduce, and will do so. >>

The current medical definition of infertility refers to a couple. If a couple tries for two years without any contraception, to conceive, and cannot, they are considered to be eligible for fertility treatments. This is about 10% of all couples. And that's now, with good nutrition and basic health.

Saying that people are "designed" to reproduce ignores the fact that in the past, many people who were celibate, infertile, or married to someone who was infertile have not had children. Society as a whole has had lots of childless people; we just don't notice it because none of them became our ancestors.

My best explanation of my desire for children is this. Right now, I have about 40% of the drive, patience, time, and maternal instinct necessary to raise a child. I could either do a less than half-assed job of raising my own kid, or spend that time with a friend or relative's child who wasn't getting a full 100% from their parents. So until that changes, I don't have kids. I know myself well enough to know that'll change, and I trust other people enough to know when they won't.

Makes sense to me, at least.

Corr

[Tranquilis]

If by 'normal' you mean 'natural' (and it seems you do) society does not in any way reflect 'normal.'

No, it means different from the ususal. In this society, and in every other one I know of, it is usual for mated pairs and some singles to have children. Biology pretty much ensures that, but I'll bet, if anyone can find an example, that any society that doesn't have parenthood as the norm quickly is subsumed or over-run by societies where parenthood is the norm.

Face it, people are thoughtless, and most will assume that if you're different from the norm, that someting is wrong with you. A truly civilized (by my lights) society wouldn't go beyond this:

Q: Do you have children?
A: No.
Q: Oh. So, how about the Orioles game last night?

Unfortunately, when you're talking about something as powerful and basic as parenthood, it tends to color your whole world-view. I frequently refer to my daughter as "my favorite obsession", and I know (intellectually) how timesome that can be to people whom don't share a similar obsession. I try to keep my enthusiasm in check, but sometimes fail. Others are less thoughtful. You may want to consider parenthood as the world's most universal religion, and there are many, many, evangelists for it out there.

So they grimly plow on.

Yes, they do. Often past the point of all reason. There are other choices out there, from support groups and family counselling, to adoption and foster care. Few alternative choices are properly supported in this country, but if you look (if you've got the energy to look), there are choices. My time in the Nav made me passionate about daycare, my time as a recruiter made me passionate about family planning and education. These, too, are neglected in our society, and that's a crime and a crying shame.

Corr, the basic human design is for reproduction. It sometimes doesn't work due to biological issues, or a lack of opportunity, or is sidetracked by personal or societal choices, but that doesn't change the fact that the human creature is designed to increase, and it does so. Now, just because we're, as a species, designed to reproduce, it doesn't mean that we must, or even should reproduce. That decision may be the ultimate test of our maturity as a species, or even of our right to survive as a species: Can we live within our resources?

[kiz]

[quote]Originally posted by Tranquilis
kiz, you don't "lose who you were", you grow new aspects to your person. The old you is still there, but may no longer be recognizable due to all the new growth. That said, new growth isn't always good, or desireable. Age is less important the desire and ability.

Ironic you should say that -- my computer consultant toddler-mom friend mentioned something similar the other night when she had my SO and I over for dinner! She says that since Ben's birth, she's experienced facets of herself she was never aware of before having him, the most mind-boggling (to her) being that she actually has more of a maternal streak than she ever realized. She went on to explain that not only is pregnancy different for every woman (she had minimal labor pains, for example), but nobody can truly explain what it's like being a mother -- it MUST be experienced.

I know fear of the unknown plays a large part in my ambivilence. Another factor is that I have very little experience with babies and toddlers, in that I've never babysat, nor, as I've already said, do I have siblings. The times I've held babies, though have been wonderful after getting over the initial fear that I'll either drop him/her or hold him/her incorrectly -- sheesh, I sing and coo with the rest of 'em!

I dunno...I've read through this entire thread and, if anything, my mind's reeling!

[kiz]

[quote]Originally posted by Lionors
Their constant drooling grosses me out immensely, they always smell of crap or sour milk, their screams affect me like fingernails going down a chalkboard and the mere thought of changing a diaper (which I have yet to ever learn how to do or want to do) makes me literally cringe.

I hear you, Lionors -- babies scare me to death for all the reasons you've mentioned. I'm terrifed at the thought of changing a diaper, and seeing drooling, smelly babies makes me cringe too. What fascinates me, though, is watching an infant gaze at the world around him/her. It always makes me wonder why they don't blink. Well, I suppose I wouldn't, too, being exposed to all the new sights and sounds and people and animals...

This entire thread reminds me of the time when, as a girl, I thought it'd be OK to have a baby and send it away until him/her reached the age of 3 or 4, then they'd return to my custody...

[DoctorJ]

The current medical definition of infertility refers to a couple. If a couple tries for two years without any contraception, to conceive, and cannot, they are considered to be eligible for fertility treatments.

[total nitpick]Actually, a couple is medically defined as infertile if they have failed to conceive after one year of optimally scheduled intercourse (that is, every 2-3 days). This comprises 15% of couples.

It is true that they are usually encouraged to try again for another year, as a few (1/3 sounds about right) will conceive on their own eventually.

I went through the hell of an OB/GYN rotation to gain this knowledge, so I'm damn sure going to share it. [/total nitpick]

My GF and I (soon to be cohabitating and eventually to be married) have given this a lot of thought lately, and we are planning to be CBC. The fact is that neither of us has any desire whatsoever to have children, and we feel this is reason enough.

Dr. J

[Legomancer]

The thing that confuses me about this thread is that I have had umpty jillion people who had no problems telling me that I was immature or selfish for not wanting to have children. Where are they? Have none of them made it here? Or is there someone reading this thread and having to force themselves not to respond and say what they want to say, for fear of being flamed?