You think of England during sex too? I’m glad I’m not alone
I’ll confess straight up that before I had kids of my own, I thought breastfeeding was kind of gross, vaguely sexual in some undefined way, and definitely not something that anybody should ever do in public. This is possibly because my younger siblings were all formula-fed, and I never once saw a family member breastfeed their child during my formative years.
Then I had my own kids, and decided to go ahead and breastfeed them (why not? cheaper, better for them, and easier) and suddenly it seemed non-gross, DEFINITELY non-sexual, and okay to do discreetly in public. I try to keep my boobage and flappage to an absolute minimum.
I think this may be one of those things that you need some basic exposure to or familiarity with in order not to see it as weird/gross. And seeing it as weird/gross is fine, as long as you don’t extend that to demanding that nursing women feed their babies in the bathroom or whatever. Trust me, the vast majority of nursing women are at least slightly on edge anytime they have to nurse in a public area anyway, so boob flashing is going to be a rare phenomenon.
Other great ape mothers nurse their young to the age of four or five – it’s really more unnatural that most of the civilized world frowns on beastfeeding past the baby stage, presumably due to the fear of breasts.
I seem to recall hearing that, while a woman is breast-feeding, it’s less likely that she’ll get pregnant with the next baby, so that breast-feeding acts as a sort of natural birth control or child-spacing (though hardly foolproof)—is that so? And if so, wouldn’t prolonged breast-feeding be discouraged in cultures where having many children was valued?
It is true that breastfeeding, especially exclusive breastfeeding, suppresses ovulation. Sensitivity varies from woman to woman, but once a baby starts sleeping for a longer block of time at night, or starts solid food along with breast milk, usually fertility will return (so we’re talking about sixish months in many cases, which is incidentally the minimum wait time to reduce risk of a preterm baby the next time).
However, it is true that there have been strange taboos about nursing, menstruation, and sex throughout the ages. IIRC, it is/was often thought that sex should be avoided until a child is weaned, so of course that has pushed for earlier weaning. Still, in many “primitive” societies today, children nurse for an average of about 3-4 years. Someone way smarter than I will have to try to tease out what is cultural, what is evolutionary, and whether that there “group selection” idea is true and how it relates to culture.
Reading this thread has made me a little sad, even after 40 years. I desperately wanted to breast feed.
My son was born in a military hospitial Feburary, 27 1967 at 6:04 PM. I was 19 years old.
I had been left completely alone, except for a nurse popping in once an hour, for the previous 18 hours. (No visitors allowed in he labor room)
On one of those quick visits by the nurse-with-icy-hands, I told her I was planning to breast feed. She was horrified! She told me I was much to young too do it successfully, and that I would be risking my child’s very life by attempting to do so.
A few hours later, the doctor arrived. He’d obviously already heard of my foolish intention. He came into the room loaded for bear. He told me, point blank, that I would fail. He said if I continued to insist, that he would, reluctantly, ok it with the nursery.
My son was born, then whisked away. I wasn’t allowed to touch him first.
I was taken to my room and sedated. Four hours later, I called the nurse to ask when they would bring him to me. She told me that he wasn’t allowed out of the nursery for 24 hours.
So, at 6:00 Pm the next day, I asked again. He was, reluctantly, brought in. The nurse who brought him said, “So you’re the one who wants to mess up my schedule, huh?” Then she told me I could try to put him to breast, but she’d just fed him so he probably wouldn’t suck. She was, of course, correct.
I tried again later that evening, with better success. I had no help or instruction from anyone. I was very proud.
I asked that he be brought to me next time he woke up. I went to sleep about 9:00 PM. I woke in horrible pain from breast engorgment at 3:00 AM. I walked down the hall to the nurses station and asked why he hadn’t been brought to be. She didn’t know. She called the nursery and was told they thought I needed my rest.
I was in the hospital for 7 days. (Military policy) By the 6th day, he was nursing for about 5 minutes per side, every 3-4 hours, with some difficulty.
The doctor told me to bring him in in five days to evaluate our progress. It was very obvious he still expected us to fail.
In five days, barely looking at him, the doctor said he was not thriving, and that I must put him exclusively on formula that very minute.
From that day on, my baby had the worst colic ever. He vomited part of every bottle, he cried for hours on end. He finally got better, when, at 7 months, he refused to accept a bottle any more. I started him on a sippy cup with whole milk and he did much better.
I admire all of you for what you have done, but more, I admire the medical community for pulling it’s collective head out.
Oh, picu, thst’s so sad. Not allowed out of the nursery for 24 hours? Messing up their schedules? Thank goodness for advancements in paying attention to what the mum and baby want, and not to the convenience of doctors.
picunurse, I find there’s nothing like a bit of rage to get one’s blood pumping on a Saturday morning. Jeez, what a collection of assholes. I will tell you one thing - you have got a lot of gumption, lady. For you to push for your choices in that environment, especially at such a tender age, took a great deal of courage and fortitude. It is a sad story. Luckily your child has a mother who clearly cares for him very much.
I have a friend who addresses the whole issue of not putting guilt on non-breastfeeding mothers this way - she says if you did not succeed in breastfeeding for the typical reasons in our culture, you probably shouldn’t feel guilty, you should feel angry. Because I wasn’t exaggerating when I put “support” as my number one tip above. If everyone from your OB to your mother in law to the passers by at the mall are hostile or ignorant about nursing, THAT is the biggest challenge to a new mother.
Diane Wiessinger has a great take on it in her article Watch Your Language!:
To post that the BF experience is not the same for every woman or even that every woman will respond differently to it is inflammatory? My response was mild and fair minded. Perhaps you should have labeled your thread: “only come in here if you completely agree with long-term nursing.”
I think you are being defensive–did you miss my smiley face at the end and the statement where I explicitly said I am not saying you shouldn’t do what you did?
BF is not a religion–or it shouldn’t be. It’s a choice. I nursed each of my kids for a time. Strangely enough not one of them suffered from being bottle fed, none of them had nipple confusion, all of them are healthy (now, that is-#2 son was quite ill as a baby). I think his illnesses had nothing to do with his nursing; a good friend of mine nursed all 4 of her kids for a year. All 4 of her kids had colic.
I get tired of advocates implying that BF will seemingly stave off illness, that it is the panacea for motherhood etc. I realize that is not stated as such, but quoting overall stats about its benefits does not help those whose individual experience varies. I completely agree that BF has many many benefits for both babe and mother–but I do not understand the fervency it seems to engender in some women.
I don’t think bottle is superior at all. Again, I think the choice that is best for Mom is the best choice, period. You made a choice and it has worked for you. All mothers make choices–I doubt most of them do so wanting to harm their children.
IMO, a lot of women find themselves in a huge dilemma of a terrible Catch-22. They want to BF, but then find they don’t care for it–how to give it up w/o seeming to be a bad mother? OR they want to BF, they enjoy it, all’s well, and then they have to go back to work–they try to pump etc, but the level of commitment gets high and yes, burdensome. Again, how to stop? (never mind all the women who do NOT want to stop but find themselves stopped-by lack of milk or illness or whathaveyou). There is more than enough guilt out there for moms today–I refuse to enter into the game of “you must do X” when it comes to things like BF. It’s a choice.
Your quote of Wiessinger seems to me to be pushing more guilt. Of course someone wheelchair bound would feel great anger in that situation. But the two situations are not analogous–one is a permanent disability; the other is a method of feeding. Having not been breast fed is NOT a lifelong crippling disability.
That said, I think that those who wanted to BF and were kept from it should be angry and rightly so. That is unconscionable, totally wrong and would make me very angry indeed. I’d like to see our world where women can make these choices freely without institutional rigidity (I include here all the businesses who don’t bend for the needs of working families as well as the military), but also without the stridency of “you must do this” from the other side. Is there a way we can support one another as mothers? By support, I don’t mean agree. I suppose I mean tolerate.
I in no way equated BF with S&M(indeed I am struggling to figure out how a rational person would think that BF had anything to do with S & M). I said I thought the PHRASE “discipline begins at the breast” sounded sexually suggestive.
RE the soothing a temper tantrum with the breast–would you shove a pacifier in the face of a 4 year old? I sincerely hope not. 4 year olds are old enough to use words, to know limits, to have more “adult” methods of discipline and comfort.
I disagree with your choice there, but again, that is my opinion. You have done what you thought best. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that these issues are not agreed upon by all parents. I’m slightly taken aback that you think these comments inflammatory at all.
You said it was reminiscent of “not-so-vanilla sex.” I myself am trying to figure out how a rational person would think that discouraging a baby from twiddling or biting at the breast translates into whips, chains, and chocolate sauce.
Also, you just posted several paragraphs full of righteous indignation about how all parents should make the choice that’s best for them. That’s great, and I generally agree. You seem to have forgotten, however, that your original post in this thread said:
So, parents should make the choice that’s best for them, except when you think that it’s “yuck” or that they should be handling their children some other way. I see. And for the record, following judgmental statements with “Of course, that’s none of my business,” or, “Of course, that’s my opinion” does not make them any less judgmental. Also, if something is none of your business, perhaps you should refrain from discussing it in a thread devoted to that very topic.
I am not at all certain if this is appropriate or not, so if not, please chalk it up to ignorance.
I never had the experience of breastfeeding; was a foundling, and thus grew up in a Catholic orphanage. I can’t say if it ( lack of breastfeeding ) had any effect on me psychologically, physically or whatnot. I do know that, even at my advanced age, when I see someone breastfeeding, it makes me feel vaguely sad, in ways I can’t define. ~shrugs~
My wife and I are past the age of having kids ( silent prayer! ), and neither of us had children from previous relationships, so I have zero right to speak on either side of the issue, and zero practical knowledge… but one of the posts confuses me:
how can breast/nipple stimulation cause a woman that has -not- had a baby to lactate? My wife’s breasts get a lot of attention ( WARNING TMI ALERT … aside from the obvious sexual pleasure , I also enjoy just laying my head against her breast after a night terror/mare, etc. Further, she claims I have “nursed” or suckled in my sleep many times. ) but she has never lactated.( She has not gone through Menopause ). I just did some quick and dirty research, and it seems some medication is required to bring about lactation ( motillum <sp?> ) being the one I see most often mentioned ). Should I be concerned that I could cause her to lactate?
I am not an expert on this topic, but my non-expert understanding is that most women do need medication in order to induce lactation if they haven’t been pregnant. A minority of women can induce lactation just through nipple stimulation, but you shouldn’t think of this as the kind of nipple stimulation that you get through, er “standard means”. Think more like, hooked up to a breast pump for 20 minutes per hour for at least a couple of weeks.
At least, this is my understanding of this issue.
Yes, that’s about right. Even when you have had a baby, if the baby can’t nurse for some reason (like ours was so premature she had no suck reflex or energy to eat), you have to pump every two hours for 20 minutes at a time to get your milk supply up to speed. There are a few exceptions to this: one of the women in my hospital breastfeeding class didn’t understand the direction, “Pump for 2 minutes past the time your milk stops,” because her milk literally didn’t stop. She pumped for 45 minutes, and there was still milk! I was sooooo jealous! But she was very unusual.
When I say that some women can lactate through nipple stimulation alone, I mean a LOT of nipple stimulation, frequent and long in duration, and deep chomping and suction, not the little nibbles and sucks most men do for pleasure.
Yes, I meant the phrase itself. I find the comparison of BF to not so vanilla sex bizarre. I apologize if that was not clear from the outset. My mind jumped to a Shirley Temple doll speaking the words, “ze discipline, it begins at ze breast!” which should tell you a few things: one my mind goes weird places and two, I read too many Dope threads!
I think you might be misreading my tone. I am not righteously indignant. I am presenting a different POV. La Leche League can be fervent about its agenda–for some it’s great, or others, it’s a turn off, to use one example.
Most opinions have at least some judgment in them. My “yuck” was a shorthand way of saying that choice was not mine–and that I don’t think it’s the best choice. Where do I say that she shouldn’t have done what she did? I said I don’t agree with what she did–she’s going to do what she feels is best-obviously my choice of “best” is different from hers. I did make clear that was my opinion–I never claimed it to be anything else. What seems to be lost is the OP’s stance of nursing a 4 year old is also an opinion–and a controversial one. What she did is something I would not do. I did not say she should not have done it.
In a thread titled, “Ask the woman who nursed a 4 year old” the OP should expect to see some variance of opinion. That said, I have no inclination or time to argue over what is a hot button issue for many, so I’m bowing out now. I hope the expectant moms reading this do try to BF. I hope they get the support they need. If they decide to go gangbusters with it, I hope their workplace is supportive. I also hope that if they decide it’s not for them, they now know that they are not alone and that guilt doesn’t need to enter into issue. (for clarity, I am not saying that the OP was attempting to lay guilt anywhere). Nursing until age 4 is extreme in our society–and it is not without controversy.
Thanks 
I’m pretty sure there is no breast pump in her future, though she claims I would make a good substitute ~SEG~
Seriously though, I had no idea such could be induced w/o the prerequisite of having a child.
Chomping??
Good lords, wouldn’t that hurt?!
Well, they usually don’t have teeth when they start out! By “chomping”, I mean a rather vigorous opening and closing movement with the jaw. The breast doesn’t extrude milk with force from behind (much), and it doesn’t easily give up it’s milk to just suction (which is why breast pumps are such a pain in the…uh…nipple. They work by suction, much the way babies don’t.) Rather a nursing baby will apply intermittent pressure with his jaw and tongue to press on the milk ducts, squirting a bit of milk into his mouth. The suction is really just to make a seal so all the milk doesn’t dribble out. After a few “chomps”, each of which squirts a little milk into his mouth, he now has a mouthful of milk. He’ll stomp chomping for a second to swallow. Somewhere in there, he remembers to breathe, as well. It’s quite a feat of neurological coordination, and preemies often need to be reminded to stop and breathe, or to swallow, or to get more milk, until their brains are mature enough to handle the sequence without choking.
This all makes a bit more sense to me.
Does anyone know, do the great apes see breasts as sexual, as we do? Their breasts really aren’t as nice as ours so I wouldn’t be surprised if breasts were just feedbags for them.
Do nursing mothers have trouble transitioning? That is, is it weird that one moment you’re breast feeding and they’re a source of food and the next they’re a source of pleasure for your SO?
Please… PLEASE understand that I don’t mean to be insulting, nor overly foolish…
The only type of thing of this sort I’ve actually experienced is milking a cow at a fair, and a few goats… and the milk SHOT out… so I kinda figured…you know… it worked the same for humans…
Aren’t babies born with teeth? Hence “baby teeth” ? I’ve heard of teething, obviously, but never really understood. ( Hell, I only recently discovered babies are not born with their eyes closed , like puppies. How can a reasonably well educated, allegedly intelligent person know so little… ~sigh~
If anyone needs me, I’ll be over there. In a cave. Under a rock.
Many of my first memories come from about the age of 4. As a guy, if I had clear memories of sucking on my Mother’s boobs I would be rather uncomfortable about it.