I have no idea where you get the notion I’m contradicting myself.
Wherever the Charter mentions Jews, it makes no differentiation in treatment between them and Israelis generally. It expressly states that the Hamas struggle is against “Jews”.
I am starting to think it is unclear to you because you don’t like clarity on this point.
Does not follow logically. ‘I think Jews and Israel are the same - and I call for the destruction of Israel’.
No. Why should it? Obviously a Hadith has more authority than a secular poem. The poem you quote states that death is the lot for unbelievers, and I have no reason to doubt that they mean it literally.
The same was said about Arafat and the PLO, as I recall. Now everyone looks back and says, if only we could deal with them instead of Hamas. If Israel were to succeed in crushing Hamas, who would they be replaced by?
My point is not that Hamas isn’t a terrorist organization; they are. But as Rumsfeld might say, you have to deal with the terrorists you’ve got, rather than the terrorists you wish you had.
Let’s see if I can untangle an argument from this snark.
I think your argument is that if Mein Kampf is not a call to genocide, then nothing is. But since that is obviously pretty silly, I think your real argument must be that reasonable people would consider Mein Kampf a call to genocide.
I think the argument is that there are very few actual examples of a written call for genocide that meet the test of being ‘explicit and unambiguous’. For some strange reason, those contemplating genocide usually don’t come right out and say that this is their goal. Most who contemplate genocide just go on about the iniquities of their enemies.
The Hamas Charter is about as direct as they come. It at least quotes as an authority another document long associated with genocide (but which, of course, does not “call” for genocide) - the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Transcripts from Rwandan radio broadcasts would be a pretty good example. *Mein Kampf *is a pretty bad example because most historians agree that Hitler hadn’t even decided that was his plan until the early 1930’s.
But in any event, I think you’re right. It would be unusual to issue an express call for genocide. Which is why I was skeptical of this claim that Hamas had done so.
The Charter certainly suggests that Hamas has no problem with killing many many Jews in the service of expelling the State of Israel from it’s current location. And it certainly does so in terms suggesting antipathy toward Jews as a people over and above any grievances related to Israel as a state, while nominally professing that Jews could live in a Islamic state.
But I am not persuaded that this is fairly characterized as a call for genocide, or that it demonstrates that Hamas will murder all of the civilians its comes across if they do not fight.
Since we cannot even agree about whether “no differentiation is made between ‘Jews’ and ‘Israel’” and “The Charter explicitly states that the struggle is against ‘the Jews,’ not against ‘Israel’” contradicts the claim that “it isn’t just 'Israel that is the problem,” I doubt we can get much further in our arguments about interpretation. Though I remain curious about your thoughts on the second-to-last paragraph in post #12.
Oh good grief. The thing is vile and disgusting. If any other group of people wrote that kind of shit, no one would doubt their motives. Hamas is not run by children. They know what they’re doing and they’re pretty explicit about it. They want to establish a fundamentalist Islamic state in place of Israel. The sort of state they want to establish is one where women and non-Muslim men will be at best second class citizens and at worst another ISIS.
If a group of Tea Partiers from West Virginia wrote this sort of bullshit they would be rightfully called KKK members unfit to run for office anywhere. I fail to see why Hamas officials shouldn’t be treated with the same sort of contempt one holds for someone wearing a white hood and holding a burning cross.
It is a call for the destruction of Israel (clearly and unambiguously stated in the charter). What ‘destruction of Israel’ REALLY means, is, of course, open to interpretation. But the fact that they use Jews and Israel interchangeably is a bit disturbing…as is their methods, thus far, of achieving the goals of their charter. It’s instructive that Hamas itself has distanced itself from it’s own Charter recently, since it’s not just crazy neo-Cons or Israeli zealots who think that they really mean genocide (or at least a large slaughter of Jews when/if they ever manage to defeat Israel).
Is it an unambiguous call for genocide? Nope…I doubt most organizations, no matter how vile (and let’s be honest here…Hamas is pretty vile), are going to be stupid enough to come right out and say ‘Yeah, we plan to kill every Jew, regardless of age or sex’, which is the only thing that is going to convince the OP.
That’s not fair. I’m not the one making the claim that the Charter is an unambiguous call for genocide. I’m asking whether that claim is true, and you seem to say it’s not.
(Which is also what Shodan posted in post #11 and for some reason got modded for.)
If anyone else wrote anything remotely like this then no one would have any trouble identifying it for the hate filled call to genocide that it is.
It’s sad that often the same people who see “dog whistles” and invisible racism in every statement by their political opponents here in the US can’t identify actual racist hatred when it’s printed in black and white by Hamas.
The have drafted a cofde that calls for genocide, as expressly as any in history.
Most ‘calls for genocide’ are simply reiterations of the iniquities of the target victims. This one has that, but also an express call to kill said targets, which are expressly identified as “Jews”.
That’s about as explicit as it gets. I know of none more explicit, off the top. While it does not use the term “genocide”, it calls for killing members of an ethnic group, because of the offences that group has committed against the ideology of the authors.
You may not find that express enough for your purposes; the purported victims could be forgiven for having a different opinion!
Would you bet your life on it? I wouldn’t.
Particularly as groups sharing a similar ideology apparently have no problems killing off Christians and Yazidis right now.
What, this?
The verses in question concern the historical massacre of certain tribes in Caanan. I would not call them “proto-Palestinians” though.
If the “propaganda” was something like this:
I would say that this would, indeed, be a ‘call for genocide’.
It’s an ambiguous call for something nasty which isn’t totally defined but which would be pretty horrible for the people of Israel if it ever came to pass. Just how bad it would be is debatable…probably Hamas itself doesn’t really know. But the fact that they have riled their people up to such a fever pitch that they do the sorts of things they do doesn’t bode well for the Israeli citizens if Hamas ever gets the upper hand.
Happily, there is very little chance this will ever happen, so it’s really moot.
Great. So we’re all in agreement that the author of the Slate piece and the many pundits who agree with it that the Hamas Charter is “[a]n explicit call for genocide” is incorrect, then?
If out of the whole bible, someone chose to quote Deuteronomy 20:16-18 why wouldn’t you assume genocidal intent? If that was in the charter of an Israeli political party, would we say “oh that’s just flowery language”?
Well, I agree that they didn’t explicitly call for genocide, but it’s open to interpretation to be honest. You get down to parsing the meaning of certain phrases and then interpretation. Personally, I think it IS a call for genocide, depending on what you mean by ‘genocide’, but that it’s couched in typical flowery language and double meaning, so it’s not ‘explicit’. But honestly this is splitting hairs, IMHO. YMMV of course.
My real argument is that if Mein Kampf is not a call to genocide, then nothing is. And it is not at all silly.
I am not sure why people are so eager to tie themselves into knots to justify the attitude of “well, sure they said they want to kill Jews and destroy Israel, and sure they quoted from one of the nastiest anti-Semitic forgeries in history, and sure their actions show that they want to kill Jews and destroy Israel, but that doesn’t prove anything”. But when the same attitude leads to the denial that Mein Kampf isn’t a call to genocide either, it becomes clear that no true Scotsman calls for genocide.
If they don’t mean what their words say and their actions show, then nobody’s do.
I can’t really disagree with you, Shodan. Splitting hairs over the intent of Hamas is a fool’s errand. It’s been clear for years - decades - that Hamas is willing to kill jews, in as great a number as possible, to acheive their political/religious ends. There’s little indication that their need can be satisfied without ending the existence of Israel and that leads them to continuing their pointless campaign.
Frankly, if they actually wanted to acheive some good, they’d rework the charter and establish a means of co-existing with Israel. But since they’ve worked their supporters up they can no longer do so without themselves losing power. And I’m willing to bet they aren’t willing to take that little step.