Let me preface this by saying I don’t have a particular large N value - a few dozen at most.
I can say, without exception, the men that I have dated that have given a nod towards etiquette, and publicly showing respect for me as well as my parents, have been more respectful in private as well.
Those that have turned up their nose a basic social nicities in public have been more obnoxious, assholish, and generally unplesant in private as well.
As I said, my N is only about 40 or so, but I’m sure my r[2] is in the high nines.
Sounds suspiciously like a judgement to me, and, apparently, it sounds the same to quite a few other people in this thread.
While i don’t much care whether or not you think i’m a “gentleman,” it’s clear that for you to decide that someone is not a gentleman (or a lady, for that matter) constitutes a value judgement on your part. And, as you make quite clear in the quotation, you are willing to make such a judgement using fairly scanty criteria.
See, the problem here is that you fail to qualify your statement. You say “etiquette,” instead of “a particular type or aspect of etiquette.”
While i see no need to stand when a woman approaches the table if i know her (as i said previously, i usually stand to greet someone i haven’t met before), this does not mean that i disregard etiquette altogether. And you are yet to demonstrate that there is direct link between this particular aspect of etiquette and the broader issue of respect. The fact that you feel there is a connection for yourself does not necessarily make it so for everyone else. As The Controvert says:
The point in this whole issue is that different people have different ideas about what constitutes appropriate etiquette. The main difference seems to be that those who feel that standing for a woman is important are, if this thread is any indication, more willing to make blanket negative judgements abut those who don’t follow the same practice.
As i said in an earlier post, i really don’t mind whether you stand for a woman or not, and the fact that a person does this certainly doesn’t cause me to think less of him. I’m perfectly aware of the reasons that people have for doing it, and i respect those reasons. The only thing that got me in a high dudgeon in this thread (and i suspect that the same might be true of others who share my position) is the sneering, morally-superior tone adopted by some of those who do follow the custom. This tends to give the impression–accurate or not–that they do so more for their own self-satisfaction than out of any respect for women.
Actually, mhendo, it is you who needs to go to a library and get an etiquette book. Margeuerite was quite correct. In fact, women (or, more accurately, ladies) did hold higher social status than men in the days when these customs were coined. Gentlemen deferred to ladies socially in many different ways: a gentleman rose whan a lady joined his party, he asked a ladies permission before smoking in her presence, he waited for the lady to initiate a handshake, he tipped his hat upon meeting a lady on the street, and so on and on. All of these customs absolutely proclaimed a lady as ‘ranking’ a gentleman in the social sphere. It is true, of course, that none of this gave a lady any real power or privilege outside of the social realm. Nonetheless, in etiquette, if nowhere else, it is perfectly correct to say that ladies always came first.
Well, i guess i’ll have to cede your point, while noting that your last sentence demonstrates just how limited your analysis is.
If you’re so narrow as to restrict your definition of the social realm and your analysis of social standing to such minor points of etiquette, then there’s not much i can say that will change your mind, and you’re right that etiquette books did prescribe such behaviour. I guess that i was just hoping for a more complex understanding of human society, one that recognizes that the term “social” encompasses much more than just the dining room or the parlour, and that understands that social, cultural, political, and economic spheres are all overlapping and interrelated. That is why i suggest reading some good, analytical history books, because they help one to understand those etiquette books in their historical context.
I like it when a man gets up upon my arrival. Call it archaic but I believe you young whippersnappers could use a lesson or two in socially acceptable behavior and manners.
My husband also opens my car door, takes my coat, and helps me with my chair. He doesn’t wear a baseball cap indoors, he says please and thank you, and he doesn’t belch in public.
I know social customs evolve over time; but I have a tinge of sadness when not only does my son not share in these practices, but also his girlfriend would think him nuts if he did.
Interesting discussion. Certainly displaying manners does not alone make one a gentleman, nor does their lack mean that the individual is a bad person.
It might be helpful in this thread to remember that the essential purpose of manners is to help us be thoughtful to and show respect toward others. We shake hands and look a person in the eyes when we’re introduced. We let other people finish what they’re saying rather than interrupting them. We open the door for people to make it easier for them to enter. We say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ to express our appreciation when someone offers or does something for us. And we stand when other guests arrive in order to make a break in whatever we were occupied with prior to their arrival and to facilitate their entrance into the discussion.
To suggest that being polite is freighted with antiquated hegemony or reflects rigid social hierarchy is to miss the point entirely. Manners and being polite are just about showing that you care about others. Yes, there are other ways to do this, but none quite so direct and effective. Absence of manners doesn’t mean you’re a bad person, but it does mean that you’re going to have to work harder to overcome the poor initial impression you made.
Just standing up for no reason strikes me as awkward. But I always stand up if I’m going to shake someone’s hand or kiss a woman on the cheeks as a greeting or goodbye. Since usually someone joining my party will require this kind of greeting, I will stand. If the situation is such that a person doesn’t require this sort of hello, I will sit.
But simply standing by itself feels tremendously weird.
I don’t understand. If I am sitting and someone enters the room, comes to a table or leaves I am supposed to stand up. Then what? Obviously when they come/go its to shake their hand/hug/kiss them but what if these aren’t normally done? Just get up and sort of chill until they leave/sit down?
If you consider standing up simply for reasons of politeness is useless, so what’s the deal with shaking someones hand? There is no point to it either. But people do it all the time.
Actually, you will stand up for someone who’s hand you’re going to shake and you will remain seated for a friend, to whom you just say ‘Hi’. The reason might be this: If you don’t stand up to shake someones hand, you risk knocking over your galss of water…
When I am the first to reach a door I hold it for others (others in my party or strangers who happen to be using the same door).
When I am seated on a crowded bus or train I will offer my seat to someone who has greater need of it.
When I am seated at a table I will rise to greet those who arrive to join me and to say goodbye when they leave.
Notice I have not specified women.
If you won’t do these things for a man don’t do them for a woman either. If you treat people equally with respect you are a respectful person. If you do not treat people equally, simply learning a few “tricks” is not enough to cover for your own flawed character.
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Methinks you’re a little oversenstitive. Or maybe just lacking in reading comprehension abilities.
I put no words in your fingers (whatever the hell that means); i simply gave my own interpretation of your attitude, and outlined some reasons why i feel it to be antiquated. Cry about it if you like, or start a Pit thread if you’re that offended.
I think that most people value manners of one sort or another (would you appreciate it if you invited someone over for dinner and they came without shoes or a shirt and belched at the end of a meal?). Many people get their shirt in a knot (or if they’re british, their knickers in a twist ) over what they see as archaic matters while forgetting that all manners are simply a way of showing respect to a fellow human being; just because someone has an old-fashioned way of showing respect doesn’t make that respect any less valid.
I don’t offer to shake hands with anyone; I’ve never got into that habit. However, I certainly don’t object if someone (male or female) wishes to shake hands with me.
You’re exactly right. We all value manners, and we all make our own evaluations over which manners are valuable and useful, and which we can live without.
While i choose not to follow what i see as the archaic practice of standing on the arrival of a woman, i don’t have any problem at all with other people who show respect this way. I made this very clear in an earlier post–i don’t look down on or ridicule people who practice this piece of etiquette.
All i was getting my “knickers in a twist” about was the fact that some people who do choose to stand also insist on casting aspersions upon those of us who do not. “Raised by hyenas” is one phrase that was used.
Etiquette, IMHO, is a set of rules used by a social group to govern social interactions. What’s considered polite by one group may actually be rude among other people. For example, in my own social group (young Orthodox Jewish adults), most of us don’t touch members of the opposite sex, meaning that I’d never offer to shake a guy’s hand, and would be taken a bit aback if one of my guy friends stuck their hand out to me. OTOH, with pretty much everybody else in America, hand-shaking is normal, and I certainly shake the hands of people that I’ve just been introduced to. Specific acts of politeness exist to show respect for the people you’re interacting with, not to do the things in and of themselves. (Yeah, I know handshaking evolved to make sure that the other guy wasn’t going for his sword, but I doubt that’s why the vast majority of people do it now.) So if getting up when another person joins your group is considered polite in your social circles, go for it. If in your group (like in mine) nobody’s ever heard of such a thing, don’t feel obligated. But don’t assume that the rules used by your group are sacrosanct and intrinsically better than those of other groups.
Thanks, Junior Mod. Be sure to tell everyone else in this thread.
In fact, make the memo out to yourself as well. Your first post spoke of “demoting” someone from the status of lady to the status of woman, which is little more than a personal position on your part, and hardly a factual answer to the general question of what society does. Your next post said:
Nothing but a value judgment there. Also not applicable to GQ.
In fact, this question should never have been in GQ in the first place. Such questions of how people behave, which inevitably involve values and subjective judgments, probably belong in IMHO, or perhaps the Pit or GD. I actually reported the thread to a mod suggesting it be moved, but had no response, perhaps due to all the kerfuffle with the software changeover.
And i notice you have no problem when someone who agrees with you breaks the GQ rules, as when Ruby said
) over what they see as archaic matters while forgetting that all manners are simply a way of showing respect to a fellow human being; just because someone has an old-fashioned way of showing respect doesn’t make that respect any less valid.