In the workplace, I don’t rise for co-workers who come into my office…but I always rise for guests, no matter what sex.
In social occasions, I try to rise to greet anyone who approaches me or the group I’m with, no matter what sex. Not so much when they come into the room, but when they come within the sphere of conversation (so to speak.)
(Zone of Control for grognards…)
Trinopus
Rising from one’s seat at a table for a lady does not mean one is raised well. It does not mean one is a gentleman. Not doing so does not mean one was not raised well. It does not make one “raised by hyenas”.
Doing so just means you follow a social custom which was once popular, but which is now much reduced in popularity, especially among the non-elderly.
[slight hijack]
What is the proper response for a woman to make when a Spanish man who is being introduced to her and says “encantado”?
I am guessing it’s just to smile, or is there some verbiage that’s supposed to go with it? (And what if it’s in French or English?)
[end hijack]
I’m totally with you on that blackknight. Much more succinct than mine.
Add me to the list of folks who just don’t get it. Certainly, people ought to be courteous to each other. Opening a door for someone, sure, that’s courteous. You’re saving that person some trouble or inconvenience. Offering your seat to another, when that other would otherwise stand or have an inferior seat, that I can see. But how in blue blazes is it courteous to stand up and sit back down, just because The Rules say so? Do it because “She’ll know what it means”? I don’t even know what it means.
I must say that i’m rather bemused–and a little amused–at those who seem to think that whether you follow this archaic custom or not is somehow indicative of your overall character or your concern for women.
Remember that, in the eighteenth century, the gentlemen who rose when a lady came to the table were often the same men who supported the law of coverture, and other laws that restricted women’s rights to own property and women’s rights in general.
In the nineteenth century, the gentlemen who rose when a lady came to the table were often the same men who consistently argued against women’s right to vote, or to initiate divorce proceedings.
For much of the twentieth century, the gentlemen who rose when a lady came to the table were often the same men who thought that women shouldn’t be allowed to have careers, and should stick to the role of home-making and child-rearing.
The problem with so many of these gender-based social customs is that an important part of their function was to add a veneer of respect, in order to make up for the fact that women were severely restricted in the level at which they could participate in society. Men were willing to let women have their seat on a train, but not willing to let them have the vote, or a job. Which do you think shows a greater amount of respect?
The fact that i don’t rise for a woman when she walks to the table does not indicate a lack of respect for her, and that fact that you do is not, by itself, any real indication that you do respect her.
Note that i’m not making an argument about general politeness here. If i’m waiting at a restaurant table and the other guests arrive, i will often rise to meet them, particularly if it is a formal occasion, or if there are people in th party that i have not met before. If, on the other hand, it’s an informal get-together among a few friends, i see no need to stand when the women arrive, or when they need to go to the bathroom.
Similarly with opening doors or other everyday interactions. If i’m going through a door and someone is coming through behind me, or someone is entering from the other direction, i will hold it open, whether that person is a man or a woman.
On preview, i agree completely with acsenray’s position.
And if people want to stand when a woman comes to the table, knock yourselves out. It makes no difference to me. But to suggest that those who choose not to follow this custom have been “raised by hyenas” is ignorance in the extreme.
Sure. I knock over my glass all the time.
I was raised to do this, except it was for people of either gender.
When a latecomer arrives, I will stand, shake hands and utter small politenesses as required, and then resume my seat after the newcomer is seated.
I still do it, and I’m not about to stop.
As for doing things for ladies, we guys are in a bind here these days. Some women love being on the receiving end of chivalry. Others will respond with a swift kick to the bollocks, or at least a “you sexist pig” icy stare. Given that it is often a pure chance hit and miss thing for us fellers, we have to make a blind choice. For mine, I’ll hold the door open. That is how I was brought up, and I don’t feel it demeans women in the slightest.
Ain’t enough manners these days.
A man should stand to greet another man, as it puts the two of them in a position of equality. Plus, handshakes are nearly always accomplished while standing. Compare the number of seated handshakes to those received, or offered, while standing.
A man/gentleman should stand to greet a woman/lady as it acknolwledges her arrival, and signifies your pleasure with her company. Additionally, if the woman/lady is to join you at table, you are positioned to assist her with her coat/wrap, to pull her chair out from the table, and to assist her in being seated. After she is seated, if she excuses herself to vist the powder room, the man/gentleman rises on her departure and again on her return. Assisting with the chair is optional at this point.
A man who can’t/won’t follow these guidlines is not a gentleman, and a woman who can’t/won’t accept such behaviour is not a lady. I hope I’ve made myself clear.
And people who insist on such rigid methods of judging others are not intelligent or rational.
I model my behavior after acsenray. I’m a middle-aged, fairly able-bodied female and I only give my seat up to people who obviously need it. As a woman I probably wouldn’t need to, but I feel the gesture helps alleviate some of the meanspiritedness I’ve observed in day to day life. I’ve also helped elderly gentlemen with their coats and I hold the door open for whoever is in back of me. I hope this means that someone will do this when I or a member of my family needs help.
I think that etiquette still dictates standing when a person joins your group (or you, if you are the group). I think it shows a minimal amount of respect to stand when greeting your guest. I do it automatically when a person of either sex joins my table (in a social setting) - it just seems rude to sit there like a lump while the person sits down. Also, it’s popular among certain members of my social circle to kiss hello (on one or both cheeks) - obviously it’s more difficult to do this from a seated postion, unless you have Go-Go-Gadget Lips[sup]TM[/sup]. 
Finally, my father made me break up with a boy (yes, he was a boy despite being 19) I was dating, when the buffoon didn’t stand when my father entered the room. At the time I was horrified. Now, looking back, all of my best man-friends have stood for Dad, so I guess he was on the right track.
Personally, I think that it is a sign of a good upbringing. It has been my experience that parents who take the time to instill good social skills in their children also tend to stress the importance of both personal and social responsibility.
BTW, if you think that only the “elderly” practice good manners, you really do need to get out more.
Very well said.
I, being a 20-something woman, stand up to speak with elderly people who are standing and talking to me. Not doing it feels odd. (Yes, I’m Southern.) I never thought there was an acutal, practical reason for doing it other than as a sign of respect. Like standing for a judge as he/she enters the courtroom or standing at the end of a musical performance.
I find it interesting that people could make a character judgement based on something so shallow. Maybe the guy who stands up is a violent misogynist, but is now stamped with the “gentleman” seal of approval. And maybe the other guy who didn’t stand up is a nice person but everybody should shun him?
Which would probably mean more if the sorts of people who aren’t likely to follow archaic social customs weren’t also likely to be the sorts who don’t really think that the archaic definitions of ladies and gentlemen are something to go crazy striving for.
Though really, if we’re going to use “gentleman” to just describe a pleasant fellow, I hardly think someone who judges someone’s entire character on whether they follow said archaic and pointless social customs really qualifies.
I was raised by hyenas, and I’ve never heard this. We were taught as pups, to quickly flick our eyes up and down when a female entered the lair. To do otherwise would leave you open to having your rotted lion meat snatched by your brother.
You know not of which you speak as I am both intelligent and rational. For your further edification, I don’t judge people under any circumstances until they force the necessity on me. As you have done, I might add.
I don’t think I understand a single thing you said. Few social customs are pointless, although some are archaic.