How did God create light before the Sun?

Ummm…that’d be an Ur-ban Legend! :slight_smile:

Now, the Big Bang thing…that’s intriguing. Best estimate of the temperature of the Big Bang: 6 billion degrees. (At that heat, Fahrenheit, Kelvin, and Celsius doesn’t make a whole lot of difference, but I believe this is Celsius.)

Now, above a certain temperature, the flux of energy is so high that electrons and protons cannot continue to exist; the irradiation overloads them and they go up the Eightfold Path and poof. The one particle that can exist at that temperature: the photon.

Light.

Poly, you won’t believe this, but as soon as I hit submit I thought to myself, “Watch Poly work in a photon post somehow.”

Don’t be alarmed, Poly. It was a fluke. Most of the time a haven’t a clue what you’ll say next. And I like it that way. :slight_smile:

Wouldja believe it was the Holy Spirit revealing that to you, Wally?

Didn’t think so. :smiley:

Pretty damn bright light, Jesus…y’know, considering he wasn’t around until waaaaaay after that. Least that’s what I remember from VBS.


“…being normal is not necessarily a virtue. It rather denotes a lack of courage.”

It’s all a load of bollocks though, isn’t it?

I don’t mean to be dismissive, but the origins of most religions date back such a long time, that all we are left with is belief, faith, opinion. And that’s mine. :wink:

Oh, goody. Darwin’s still hungry…

From Genesis1, KJV:

The Earth is part of the heavens. See any picture of Earth taken from spacecraft. This verse was obviously written by someone who thought the sky and the Earth upon which he lived were separate structures. But the Earth is just one planet among many, orbiting one star among many.

The ancient Hebrews, being desert nomads, saw the land as being stable, reliable, and slow to change. They saw the sea as chaotic and dangerous. Perhaps the writer selected waters to invoke a vision of chaos in the mind of the readers. And God was about to make order come out of chaos. But let’s say he meant the seas: If the Sun had not yet been created, wouldn’t those waters have been frozen solid?

If the light created by God was the light of Jesus, it wouldn’t be sunlight, true. But if it’s the light of Jesus, why is it called “Day” here? Why is the lack of light (darkness) called “Night”? It’s obvious this passage was written by someone who did not know the Earth rotates and we get night (darkness) when we are on the side of the Earth opposite the Sun.

In 6,7 and 8 God divides waters from waters with the firmament of Heaven. Apparently, the writer thought there was water in the sky. (The source of rain?) And the word “firmament”, according to Webster’s, comes from a Latin word, firmare, which means “support.” So the heavens support the Sun, Moon, planets and stars that come on the fourth day. Actually, they aren’t supported by anything, they move through empty space, subject only to gravity and inertia.

Gee, I guess the writer DID mean the oceans when he wrote about waters earlier. And note that the Sun STILL has yet to be created. Those Seas would still be frozen solid. Gathering together in one place a lot of frozen water would be a miracle, all right.

tbea925 said that yeast does not require sunlight. Unfortuantely, God doesn’t creat yeast in verses 11 & 12, He creates grass, herbs and fruit trees, which all do need sunlight.

**handy spake:

Unfortunately, God creates ALL the heavenly lights on the same day in verses 14 - 18.

In verses 19 - 25, God creates all the animals. BTW, day five ends in verse 23. But more animals were created on day six (verses 24 & 25), before finally getting around to Man in verse 26, where God unexpectedly and inexplicable begins to refer to Himself in the plural.

I could go on, but that’s enough for now. I have a question that’s always annoyed me: “Why do so many Bible verses begin with the word ‘and’?”


>< DARWIN >
__L___L

Jab says: << “…the Heavens and the Earth.” This verse was obviously written by someone who thought the sky and the Earth upon which he lived were separate structures. But the Earth is just one planet among many, orbiting one star among many. >>

Continuing in that vein: “My love is like a red, red rose” was obviously written by someone who thought that people and flowers are identical. But people are mammals, not identical to plants in any way imaginable: no leaves, no petals, no thorns, and few people are coloured red.

“What light through yonder window breaks” was obviously written by someone who thought that light had mass, and could break something fragile like a window.

“The best laid plans of mice and men…” was obviously written by someone who thought that mice could make plans, just like humans can.

C’mon. I think the opening lines of Genesis are a beautiful expression (poetical) of the origins of the world. Sure, Earth and Heavens are separated – because the rest of the book is concerned with morality, which happens on Earth, not in the Heavens. The whole opening poetry is about separation – earth from heaven, light from darkness, land from waters, water above from water below.
<< And the Earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. >>

jab sees this as written by people who lived in a desert and didn’t know how to travel by ocean. But the word “deep” when used here does not mean “ocean” – that’s much later, English usage. The word “deep” in the Hebrew text has no equivalent – it means depths, unfathomable, unimaginable, deepness. It is used in the Hebrew text only in the context of primordial chaos.

And I find this line a beautiful expression of an artist creating (whether sculture, poetry, music,…). The artist starts with the base material, unformed, unstructured, and the spirit of the artist moves gently, caressingly, like a parent hovering over a child, over the material.

This is not a science text, but a poem, and a brilliant poem with amazing depth of feeling in a few, sparse Hebrew words.

To answer your last question, jab, the original Hebrew text did not have punctuation, no periods to mark the end of sentences, no paragraphing to mark the ends of thoughts. The word “and” (Hebrew: vav) was therefore frequently placed at the beginning of a new thought, to indicate both a linkage with the prior sentence, and a separation.

Chris, there’s a theological belief that the Christ coexisted with his Papa from before the Creation. It’s fairly popular in some fundamentalist theology, and IIRC is based on the idea that, well, Christ is God and has always existed, as well as a couple plural references in the Genesis creation story.

-andros-

andros, I agree with that.

pluto wrote:

Problem is, there weren’t any Earth-dwellers to witness it before Day Six.

I actually don’t have problems with Genesis 1 being poetry. My trouble is with people who take it literally, and the OP clearly takes it literally. The problems of creating light before the Sun, and liquid water without a Sun and flowering plants without a Sun show that you can’t take it literally.

CK, you ought to know by now that I’m an atheist and I accept the Bible as a work of ancient literature and not a science text or even as a history book.


>< DARWIN >
__L___L

So it was just God lighting his farts?

[sub]I’m sorry. I really am. I will flatulate myself now.[/sub]


The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

Jab, the problem is that there is no argument with those who take the text literally. Merely pointing out seeming contradictions will never convince them; they can swallow camels (like denying all of evolution), so they won’t strain at gnats (like what light there was before the sun). They have answers to most of your points, some of those answers 1500 years old or more.

It’s like trying to point out to ultra-conservatives who oppose abortion AND oppose gun control, that there is an internal inconsistency in their position. You won’t ever convince someone to change his position just because it’s internally inconsistent. To the contrary, it just makes them dig in their heels.

“Before Abraham was, I am.” — Jesus

I bet you’d never get cmkeller to agree that the “light before the sun” was the light of Jesus. :wink:


>< DARWIN >
__L___L

Hmmm…I know in Jewish thought the Torah predates Creation. Would the Messiah also do so? If so, I suspect that CMK would agree to the syllogism “If Jesus be the Messiah, then he would predate the Creation.” (Note the rare present subjunctive needed to make it sufficiently hypothetical to suit CMK’s taste.)

God, I love the present subjunctive.

I thought the Messiah was just a very holy man who will fulfill the prophesies (for Jews). He could hardly be around forever then, although the prophesy of him might have been.

My question: if God is omnipotent, why did he have to rest the 7th day? :slight_smile:


Each of us, at some time in our lives, turns to someone - a father, a brother, a God - and asks, “Why am I here? What was I meant to be?”

This might sound like a dumb question, and I’m sorry, but what Gaudere said got me thinking I might have made an errant assumption about Judaism. Do Jews believe that G-d is spirit? Or that He is biological? Or something else?