How do I punctuate this possessive?

In a thread over in CS about Michael Jackson videos, I wanted to make “Beat It” possessive. Since titles are typically in double quotes, would it be “Beat It”’s? That looks very wrong. Putting the apostrophe within the quotes also seems wrong since it’s not actually part of the title.

So what’s correct?

The usual solution is to italicize the title. Apparently some think it should be done the way that looks wrong. I’d reword it.

I did.

Couldn’t you just do it the same way you do with anything that has a two-part name?

  • South Dakota’s governor
  • Patrick Stewart’s bald head
  • Beat It’s unparalleled excellence

I’m not a native speaker, but I think these are all correct. It would, AIUI, even be correct for terms with postpositive adjectives (“the attorney general’s”), even though those form the plural by attaching the -s to the noun (“attorneys general”).

None of those two-part names have quotation marks around them. That’s the complication here.

Anyways, the only guide I’ve found that addresses it suggest the following:

“Beat It” 's lyrics are still an improvement.

That’s a thin space, which I typed by using   . But a regular space will do in a pinch, like I did in the previous sentence before the period.

But, basically, a thin space is how you handle punctuation marks that run together.

I would print the title in italics, but the apostophe s in regular font:
Beat It’s unparalled excellence

But I am no expert…just going by what looks right to me.
Titles are usually italicized.And the italicization helps to group both words together as one unit, so the possessive s applies to the whole unit, not just the last word.

Titles of short works, including songs, are typically in quotation marks. Titles of longer works are italicized. One cite:

Then what would you do if you were hand writing? I can’t write in italics.

@Machine_Elf But if I just use Beat It’s, it looks as though I either don’t know the actual title of the song or I don’t know the proper usage of it’s/its.

You reword and avoid the issue altogether. The only other solutions either impact clarity, force you to mess with somebody else’s title, or both. These are cardinal sins.

The AP Stylebook agrees with me, but I think this link will not work without a subscription of some kind.

apstylebook.com/ask_the_editors/26410

The link did not work for me.

I agree with those who suggested rewording. Like the OP already did.

You underline, when handwriting or using an old-fashioned typewriter that doesn’t do italics.

I agree with Johnny_Bravo. My mother was a journalist and writer for many years and she would call it “writing yourself into a corner.” When a story, sentence, or word construction seemed awkward or caused significant punctuation or clarity issues, she said she would start from scratch and find a way to avoid the problem completely. Her analogy was someone trying to make a totally broken-down house beautiful with a few boards and a coat of paint. Better to tear it down and start over.

It surprises me that Chicago and AP style both strictly forbid making a possessive out of a title that is in quotation marks. From time to time, you might need to do so. Sometimes you cannot properly rework the passage (for instance, you might be citing someone else’s words verbatim). I’ve seen the possessive placed inside the quotes – “Beat It’s” routines – and (where a rewrite would be even more ungainly) I believe this imperfect solution needs to be tolerated.

And, if you are printing it, don’t forget the italic correction :slight_smile:

The dirty secret of all style guides is that everything can be tolerated from time to time, if there’s good reason. But I don’t think this is it.

“What I love about [the video’s] routines are the way they look,” said Cecil.

Is that being presented as a serious work-around? Just no. That’s ugly and doesn’t preserve the quote. Set it off typographically in italics as most have said.

It’s a fact of continuing amazement to me that after more than 50 years of seriously studying English style with regards to writing properly, issues should still periodically arise that I have never dealt with and have no answer to. I’m not sure why. English is fantastically complicated and its hundreds of millions of users throw off hundreds of billions of sentences daily. Even an AI couldn’t keep pace.

I also find myself less and less interested in worrying about what is proper. Especially here. Although threads and posts regularly appear from admirably literate purveyors of language, this board overall has a casual structure. Whenever I put a title into italics I wonder why I take the bother. Whenever I question whether italics or quotes are more “proper” I wonder who I am doing it for.

Style guides may sit heavily on those who work for owners who mandate their use, they are not incumbent on any outsiders. Moreover, they do not, as people here have noted, contain writ. They merely lay down requirements for a small set of users. Good writers can assemble their own set of styles, drawn from a dozen guides or self-determined. How could anyone deny them, other than from a false pedanticism?

Perhaps the best justification I can give for writing “properly” here at all times is an analogy to driving. I use my turn signals even when no one is there to see them because I want to make this such an automatic habit that I never forgo using them when they are necessary. But year by year I find that I just don’t care if I write Michael Jackson’s Thriller in a post and leave the title utterly bare. Michael Jackson’s Thriller’s admirers will just have to accept it as it is.

That mostly makes sense, but when everyone knows and follows the same conventions, it aids comprehension. For example…

Do you mean “Thriller” the song or Thriller the album?

Anybody can break rules, but most people can only break rules in an artful manner after mastering them.