What I really want to do is record myself singing along to accompaniment and listen to it. I think I’m pretty good at hearing bad notes, etc. and that it would help my singing if I could critique my own voice while listening to a recording of it. My problem is just that it’s hard to know when to come in, etc, with the music. That’s why I think maybe some karaoke software might help… but I’m also thinking that I may have my friend play the simple melody of the song on a piano and make mp3s for me (he’s said he would) or get my mom to do the same on the guitar, and sing along to that, which obviously a karaoke game wouldn’t help with. I was wondering how hard what I’m attempting is, and if anyone had tips. Several people have offered good tips so far and I hope to see more, and eventually get to the point where I can actually do what I am hoping to do and record my voice (I’ve recorded myself a capella and critiqued that, which is better than nothing but not the same.)
Ok I finished reading the rest of the thread. Interseting conversation, IMO.
I can dance, so I can hear the beat in music; though when I dance I dance a little more “freely” than most people, often hitting an accent beat more strongly than a main beat in order to make an interesting move, etc.
Something occurred to me: what if I get my mom to record the songs on her guitar, and give a tiny (very tiny) verbal cue when each verse starts and when the chorus starts? That wouldn’t be too disruptive on my “singing back” recording. The main thing I don’t want is to record my voice over someone else’s, for two reasons. First it makes it harder to hear your mistakes, and second, it’s easier to sing well if you can match someone else’s notes than if you have to come up with them on your own.
I think I may ask her to record a couple of songs for me that way, with tiny verbal cues (I only need like 2-3 songs to start with) and then maybe eventually get a karaoke game (to play at home alone only!) to practice singing when I feel I am getting better.
What do you think? Workable plan?
Just hearing people say that it is hard for them/other people gave me a lot of relief. Knowing that I’m not having trouble with something that comes totally naturally to everyone on the planet but me helps.
Thanks everyone–and please keep up the discussion. I might pick up more useful tips.
I think it sounds like a plan. What you want to do reflects an idea I have had kicking about for a bit now, about using multitrack audio, midi and pitch tracking to produce a vocal trainer (like the karaoke games, but for serious learning/practice) for individuals and choirs. Maybe I should get off my chuff …
Just for interests sake, I found this article on the BBC website today on public singing and shyness. I watched the episodes of “The Choir” in question and was moved to tears by the end of the series - certainly a more satisfying musical journey than X Factor or Pop Idol.
Si
Interesting article, si blakely.
I have sung in front of people on one sole, solitary occasion. I was maybe 17 years old and was with my dad at some friends of his’ house, and I think there was one other couple there. We were talking about Christmas music (it was during the Christmas holiday) and I mentioned I liked the song “Christmas Dinner” by Peter, Paul, and Mary. Nobody had heard of it, so they asked me to sing it. With a LOT of hesitance, I finally agreed. Everyone sat quietly waiting for me to start. For about three minutes. Not 3 minutes of subjective time, but three actual minutes, give or take. I sat there with my eyes closed, trying to get my panic breathing under control, then I sang the song. Had my eyes closed the whole time. When I was done they said it sounded good, but they’d have said that no matter what it sounded like, so I wasn’t convinced. It was one of the most terrifying things I’ve done, though, and I’ve had many more years to shrivel deeper into my fear.
This probably won’t work for you, OpalCat, but it’s IMO the best way to learn how to sing so I’ll say it for other readers.
Look up a local community choir, or glee club, or pub chorus or what have you. Find out when their recruitment drive/newb night/opening season is (and most of them have one), and start then. It’s a lot less nerve-wracking to sing when you’re in a crowd, and the people around you are either new, too, or locals you’re friendly with or old guys who are polite and (probably) non-judgmental. Seriously, you could be the worst person in the room and no-one would notice*. It works wonders on the voice, since you can try to match pitch to the people around you, and the conductor will be correcting everyone’s mistakes. It also gives you a purpose to sing for, a goal to strive to. If you know that eventually this song will become part of an event, you’re going to want to sing better a lot more. It’s also a social experience, which can be a bonus!
*Well, they might notice, but they probably wouldn’t care.
I don’t understand. If you don’t know how to sing, how could you possibly know how to correct yourself? In addition, if you’re trying to avoid anyone else hearing you sing, it seems counterproductive to make a bunch of recordings that would stick around and may eventually end up on the internet if something goes horribly wrong.
A couple of other suggestions for getting over the hump: if you can sing for your husband or son or somebody you trust, that can help break through the general fear of singing in front of anyone. If that still scares you too much, do you think you can stand to have them listen to a recording of yourself? That way you can sing by yourself, and it’s a lot easier to hit play than to break through that barrier. Don’t approach it as any kind of test or assessment of quality, just say “listen to this, please” and play it. Don’t solicit or allow any comments. Just have them listen. Baby steps.
I don’t know if any of that would help. Just offering suggestions. I certainly understand the fear of singing. I still get nervous occasionally, and I’m an established professional.
Because I know shitty when I hear it. I may not be able to train my own voice into that of an opera diva, but I can definitely improve it enough so that I don’t think “that sucked” after I finish singing something.
And you’re right that your solution wouldn’t work for me. I can’t even sing “Happy Birthday” in a large crowd of friendly people, to a child, in my current state. I lipsynch it. Every once in a while I work up the nerve to croak out a syllable or two, then retreat back to my comfortable silence. But it might work for others.
I absolutely can’t sing for my husband. I actually tried once. It ended with me crying and us getting into a huge fight. And no, he didn’t say anything critical about my singing. If I recorded myself enough times that I got a recording that I thought sounded decent, I might let him listen to that, though.
I’d caution you, though, about listening to recordings of yourself. You would risk reinforcing whatever negative impressions you have about your sound and your singing. Singing along to an instruments-only recording (or MIDI software generated recording) seems like the only workable solution to your fear of singing in front of others so far. If the phobia is that strong at the moment, listening to your own recording may strengthen the phobia.
I would urge you to work on your natural voice, what I often call in lessons ‘the naked voice’. Don’t try to make it be something, let it be itself. Move supported air from your lungs past your vocal cords in a relaxed manner while matching a pitch. Gently move to a different pitch. Become familiar with and accustomed to matching pitches. Above all, allow yourself the freedom to make mistakes. Treat yourself as you would treat any artist who came to you for advice. Nothing is beyond improvement; you can be your own worst critic, if you want to be. I would rather you nurtured and encouraged yourself.
If I may be allowed a moment on my soapbox, this is part of what upsets me when people talk about taking music programs out of schools. It is so much harder for adults to allow themselves the permission to make mistakes, to make ‘bad’ sounds. We are surrounded by recorded music which is artificially perfect. Comparing yourself to a singer’s auto-tuned one best take out of 30, or the meticulously over-dubbed performance of an instrumentalist is unfair and discouraging. ‘The forest would be silent if only the best birds were allowed to sing’. Adults need to re-learn the habit of non-judgementalism that children naturally possess. (I don’t think 'non-judgementalism is an actual word; sue me!)
I’ll join you on the soapbox and add my frustration with bad music teachers who historically have told kids (as in little kids, like Kindergartners) that because they couldn’t match pitch, they could play the drums instead (or something). Instead of teaching the kids to sing, they just let them fall by the wayside and instill a sense of musical worthlessness. I’d like to think that modern pedagogy discourages that sort of thing, but I’m cynical enough to worry otherwise.
And to your main point: people need to listen to live music more. My current voice teacher also happens to be Christine Brewer’s teacher; my studio used to be right next door, and I would listen in on her coachings. Last year she was preparing Turandot, and was struggling with In questa reggia. Hearing a top level, world class professional having difficulty makes it so much easier to accept one’s own limitations.
Thanks for the tips. I did have some musical instruction in school growing up: I played the flute in band in elementary school. Not much, granted, but it’s something.
One other question: what is it you are looking to sing? If we’re not talking opera, what style?
I am opera trained but my normal sound is countryish so I just go with it. (I can make any song a country song so I am told.)
Doing that (and being good at it) is a far different thing.
Mostly folk songs. Peter, Paul, and Mary; Joan Baez; Judy Collins… the occasional rock song here and there (though not the rockin’ out vocals types).
Agree with caution about recording and listening. I’m interested in chess (but suck) so followed the recent thread about improving, and there’s a resonance structure: if you don’t know what to listen for (mutatis mutandis, reading a chess game, what to analyze), it won’t do you no good.
I think I’m going back to the earlier poster’s caution that there’s no substitute for a mentor/teacher/confidant. (Sorry I can’t recall your name, earlier poster!) Surely OpalCat knows someone in her area who can be somewhat helpful in persona – I give one-off lessons to friends (acquaintances, really) all the time, gratis – on an old piano in the corner of some bar or just sketch out a plan of attack on paper. For no fee. Granted, vox is maybe a little more personal than music theory or keyboard technique, but a nice chick like OpalCat should have someone around who can help out. Example: my father used to be apparently a bad mofo on Horn in his teens, and when I was crashing with them about 5 years ago for a few months, I was hitting the shed hard and my mother wanted to unleash her inner Ethel Merman. Well, I was already not bad at accompanying and playing, but she wouldn’t learn even the words of the tune she wanted to play, and my pops steps in once when we were hashing out “Easy Living,” and all it took was for him to point to the chart and sing (in a voice as bad as mine!) the first three or four bars.
Honestly, I think that scared her a bit – everyone has dreams, and should have them. But, frankly, knowing is half the battle. Sounds a bit cryptic, but music is something IMO that needs to be passed down in first person. Doesn’t have to be a teacher (and we all know some are good and some are great and some should be not teaching), but it could be a recording. How does OP think someone like me – a good student, begging my parents for lessons from a top teacher – learned? By listening, practicing, playing, imitating, studying, and just plain playing in front of others when I had the skill.
It’s a long road, but the fundamentals: listening, learning, feeling (intuitively), and expressing seem pretty much the royal road to me.
[Private note to OpalCat my private note wasn’t about this thread, but the other one about celebrities – you’re brave for seeking help here and even though people blah-blah about how it’s hard to talk about music in words, it all makes sense once in a good long while. I’m amazed at how many posters I didn’t know have so many good ideas, and I think it’s time to sift through and ask more questions until something good/bad happens!]
Sorry about 2x post, but speaking from the other side of the coin, I record myself constantly (on keyboards, not vx) – and my first real pro teacher at age … 12? 13? I don’t know. … suggested it. But you have to know what to listen to.
Vox I suggested earlier is more personal – I can hear a piano flourish or comping pattern and think “less loud,” or “more hit the one,” but voice, that’s you, innit? Maybe it’s a psychological thing – hitting some cymbals or piano keys or woodwind keys isn’t as easy to distance oneself from.
Signing off, and, that’s why Aretha and Sam Cooke had “soul” – because they sang!
That may get the best result, but I strongly feel that this will never happen. My fear is too strong and the reasons to get over it are too small. I mean, what is my ultimate goal here? To sound better to myself when I sign in the car. Not a lot of strong “fight through the pain” type of go-get-'em-tiger motivation to overcome what is a really quite acute, crippling pain. Like I said, the one time I tried to sing in front of my husband (years ago, when we were dating,) it ended up with me in tears and him almost cutting a stay with me from out of state short and spending the rest of his time off at his parent’s house. I don’t remember how it got there, but it started with me being too shy/embarrassed to sign in front of him, and when I managed to start, it was so feeble and squeaky (not the reasonably good sounding stuff that I can often pull off in the car by myself with no pressure) I just lost it and started crying…
I am TERRIFIED to the point of near paralysis over someone hearing me sing. If I’m singing in the car and I stop at a red light? I stop singing, just in case it carries through to the next car. ETc. etc. etc. But for the most part, this fear doesn’t affect anything real or important in my life. I’m not seeking to become a professional or even hobby singer. I don’t WANT to do karaoke bars or join choirs or things like that. Even fear aside, they just don’t interest me at all. I JUST want to have a bit more control and a better pitch/tone/whatever when I’m singing to myself.
I know that if I sign in the car a lot, like every day, I noticeably improve–I notice the difference. I think I’d improve even more if I could listen to myself from an outside ear rather than through my skull. I may not be a professional, but I can tell when rendition A of a song sounds better/worse than rendition B… I think that I can train myself to get better by doing this. I also think it would help if the songs weren’t all a capella as they are now , unless I’m singing along to something. But I’m more interested in singing not along with someone. That’s why I want to get a simple instrumental track and record myself singing along to it. I’m just worried that the cues will be hard to learn, especially since my acoustic track will be quite different from the more fully instrumented tracks that I sing along to with mp3s/CDs… like I can’t think "oh the chorus starts right after the drum hits the third beat "or “when the trumpet fades out the verse begins”… I have to learn another way.
I didn’t realize that the fear was indeed close to paralytic. I’d say you’re right: record yourself, and by trial and error, keep honing the results to what you need. Equipment needed: headphones, instrument, recording device. Effort required: maybe some, maybe a lot. Ego control: need a bunch. Everyone knows how hard it was to record themselves the first time, or the tenth time. Fuck all that – this is your training, and it will be hard and painful, like a monkey chewing your brains out.
I wouldn’t worry about understanding in a standard way all of the downbeat/upbeat stuff, for what you need – you’ll feel it out with practice, and, with your teacher. Your teacher is going to be you, and you have something in common with your student (namely, identity). I want some updates, though! This is an interesting thread to me, and not just because I’m an egomaniac who likes to hear himself talk, but because it’s of a topic of real depth and relevance to anyone who cares about the arts in general.
Okay, so I’ve followed all of the suggestions and I’m gonna pitch my 10-cents-worth because, well, the chance to add my outside-the-box and slightly off-beat perspective is the whole reason I frequent this place.
For background (if it matters): In my senior year I shouted “Hellooooo!” to the the school’s Choir director across the campus quad. He abruptly stopped his argument with the principal and suddently I found myself being recruited because he liked my tone, volume, pitch, and sustain. Out of fifteen guys, I was quickly made second tenor because I had a great range and could sing as high as Steve Perry (take that to the Journey discussion…). I coulda been first tenor, but I couldn’t read music–so I stood next to the first tenor and followed his voice. I had started out learning to sing because it went well with my study of guitar, so when the call came for acts to fill the time during the semester performances when the scenes were being changed behind the curtain, I auditioned and took a leading spot. I don’t consider that professional, but it was apparently above-average. All that did a lot for my self-confidence.
I digress…:o
The musical theory discussion is awesome and very educational. The information about recording techniques and instrumental backing software is fascinating as well. However, with all due respect to everyone on this thread, I don’t really think OpalCat’s primary goal has been addressed.
Fair enough. Not an unreasonable goal by any means. Keep your mind open, though: Like or hate him, Tom Cruise is a major actor who just wanted to stop stuttering…
Hmmm…actually, no.
The problem is that the recording equipment that OpalCat will be able to access is probably going to be crap. I had recorded myself on various audio recorders and always thought my voice sounded rather flat in comparison to what I hear when I speak or sing. The only time I felt the playback was accurate was during my choir concert audtion (see my digression) and, when I literally shouted, “That’s incredible! How come that sounds like me when nothing else does?” the choir director immediately responded, “Because that’s ten thousand dollars worth of recording equipment in a room designed for perfect acoustics.”
Oh.:smack:
OpalCat has already limited her budgetary freedom, so she’s not going to be spending scads of money on acoustic dampeners and pro-level recording technology. Furthermore, she’s not going to go rent a studio – near or distant, for 1 minute or 3 hours – because that involves having someone at the soundboard mastering the EQ and levels, which involves listening to her as she lays down tracks.
But what OpalCat does need is an inexpensive way to get immediate and accurate feedback (reverb, really) when she sings – with or without a vocal to follow. In a certain sense, she’s already getting it but doesn’t seem to know how or why. Since nobody else has pointed it out, I suspect nobody else noticed: The inside of the glass windshield of her car is reflecting her voice back to her.
Now OpalCat could sit in her car all afternoon and sing along to tracks or tapes on the dashboard stereo, but that’s going to wear down her battery and probably generate odd looks from her friends and neighbors. Plus the windshield, dashboard, seats, etcetera in the car may also be distorting her voice even as it’s coming back to her.
But there’s a trick that I learned on my first day in Choir: Stick it in your ear!
:eek:
No, really. That’s not just rude, it’s decent advice. What you want is to either press down on the little forward flap of the ear or literally stick your finger in your ear so that sound is being conducted from your echo-chamber (mouth and sinuses and, to a certain extent, your throat and nose) and back to your eardrum – some people say it’s circulating back into the cheekbone, but I think it’s going farther behind that point on your skull. I vaguely recall some old comedy sketches (Mary Tyler Moore show? Laugh-In? I dunno) in which one of the regular characters was a radio or TV anouncer. Any time he spoke he would be holding his hand on his cheek, sticking his finger in his ear. It made him look funny and may have been part of the joke about the character, but the technique is real; it helps you hear yourself with better accuracy than letting the sound come out of your mouth, bounce off whatever’s around, and reflect back to your ear. Variations in furnishings as well as air (temperature, humidity, etc.) can affect what gets back to your ear but the plugged-ear trick gives the real sound a shortcut to your eardrum.
Plus, your finger requires no capital investment (but you can’t return it if the results are unsatisfactory, either).
Do that while singing, even in the car. Don’t do it with both ears, though, because you need the other ear ‘free’ to hear the song you’re trying to emulate. Ideally, though, you do this standing up. As someone mentioned, singing while seated puts unnatural pressure on the diaphragm and that tweaks your sound, too.
Once you’ve got your voice tuned to your ear, consider lessons or software or whatever. What I got from the original post and your responses, though, was that you’re trying to find a way to be more accurate in your output. That requires accurate input first.
Good Luck!
–G!
And if I’m feelin’ good to you
and you’re feelin’ good to me
there ain’t nothin’ we can’t do or say.
Feelin’ good, feeling fine,
Oh, baby, let the music play
. --Doobie Brothers
. Listen to the Music
. Toulouse Street
Thanks, Grestarian, I’ll take what you said into my “tool set” (for what it is)… you make good sense.
Okay, so it’s been about 8 months.
How’s it going, OpalCat?
----G!
I need to know
(need to know)
I need to know
(need to know)
. --Tom Petty (…and the Heartbreakers)
. I need to Know