How do you sing and play the guitar?

Cafe Society
1

I put it here because it’s culture, but if it might get better play in IMHO, by all means move it.

I know the board is probably tired of “Zsofia Finds a Hobby” threads - you can trace my ephemeral passions by looking at a list of threads started by time - but you guys have been so super-helpful on woodworking and polymer clay and aikido and etc, etc, etc…

So how the hell do you sing and play the guitar at the same time? Chords, I mean. The thing is, the reason I originally started taking lessons is to bulk up my librarian resume in the children’s services area. I wanted to be able to play a little for storytime, since I don’t have any real children’s experience. Now, I really feel like I’m learning a lot when it comes to playing the guitar, and it’s been truly fascinating seeing how guitar songs are really constructed and looking at music from a completely different standpoint than I ever did in decades of piano lessons. So I’ve learned a ton about improvising within the pentatonic scale and stuff, but I haven’t learned dick about playing and singing for storytime. :slight_smile:

I sang in college, but I’m not a super-strong singer. I do have a strong music background, though, but it’s not really a “chord” background - like I said, I played the piano. I’m getting more and more comfortable with the chords and I have to think about them less and less, but I still can’t figure out that “singing with chords” thing. My brain doesn’t know what note to sing. I understand, intellectually, that, say, we’re starting on the tonic of this chord, and if I play the melody I can sing along (haltingly because I have to divide my attention, but I’m on the notes.) If I try to sing the same thing while playing chords, though, no matter how solid I feel on the notes before I start playing my brain gets confused and just kind of sings a tentative note somewhere in the middle.

So how do you learn to do it?

2

I do it by sort of zoning out. Your conscious brain gets confused, but your subconscious brain is one multi-tasking marvel. That’s part of it.

The other part is that you need to be pretty confident in your playing in order to be able to sing along. I find that singing comes fairly naturally, but playing is definitely a muscle memory type of thing.

Also, I’m a klutzy ape when it comes to playing and singing, so I write my own songs. It’s much easier when you write something within your own abilities.

(side note: I hate using the term “write” in terms of making songs…I don’t sit at a piano with a quill pen and a powdered wig…it’s more like laying eggs or something for me)

3

Can you listen to recordings of other people performing the songs you want to play? If yes, then I recommend singing along to the songs without playing guitar and vice versa. When you master both singing and strumming, then do both simultaneously while listening to the songs. It just takes practice. If possible, record yourself performing and listen for improvements with progressive takes.

That works for me, at least. My voice sucks, but I can sing on key within my range while playing guitar.

4

You have to learn the strumming and rhythm parts for guitar so well that you don’t really need to think of them. You focus on singing and your animal brain does the guitar parts. Just keep practicing the guitar and you’ll get it.

5

Start by singing “G G G G G, G G, C C C C, A miiiiinor A miiinor, D…” and see if that helps.

6

What Flander said. I could only do it when i was playing a song i knew forwards and backwards, and didn’t need to concentrate on what my fingers were doing.

7

It’s important to sing in a key that fits your voice. Trying to reach uncomfortable notes because the accompaniment is in the wrong key for you makes it much harder to stay in tune. Because printed music, whether it’s lyrics & chords or sheet music, is in only one of the twelve possible keys, it can be extremely helpful to know how to transpose and how to use a capo. When in the right key for you, you should be able to provide guitar accompaniment that helps, rather than hinders, staying in tune.

Transposing is less of an issue if you’ve got a broader than average singing range, but it can still be important. Only high-level guitarists can easily play in keys like Eb or B without a capo.

With sheet music that has chords, you are given both the melody notes and the chords that go with them. This is one way to coordinate the chords to the vocal.

Another is to experiment a bit. Start with a simple two or three chord song that you know well, that doesn’t have very many chord changes (e.g. “Oh Susanna”). Start singing the first few notes, in a key that comes to you naturally, while playing the first chord. If the chord doesn’t jibe with what you’re singing, start trying other keys. Once you’ve found an opening chord that sounds right, see how the next chord change blends with your singing (make sure that you’re changing to the correct chord - depending on what you’re working with, transposing may be necessary). Eventually you should be able to feel a nice coordination between the chords and the melody. As you get more comfortable with this, start trying different and more complex songs. You’ll get better.

8

What Flander and The Tof said…and I would add that as you learn more songs you will find that chord changes become very predictable and require less thought. I think that the key to mastering any instrument is achieving the point at which you don’t THINK about playing, it just flows. That frees up the mind to remember lyrics, moreso for some of us than for others. So, short version of all that is that it will become easier to accompany your singing and to sign while you play as you gain experience in playing.

Hawk

9

The only training I’ve had was a Beginning Folk Guitar class back in the '80s. Folk songs are a good place to start because they tend to be simple. First we learned the chords to a song. Then we played them simply. That is, one strum per beat. Not very interesting, but it makes it easy to sing along. Once everyone got it, we strummed more naturally and were able to sing along with that. Personally I find it helpful to sing along as I learn a new song since it helps me get the rhythm down.

My problem is picking and singing. I can pick and sing Mr. Bojangles well enough; but if I try to do Green Day’s Time Of Your Life I can either play the single notes and not sing, or sing while I play chords.

Looking up: What CateAyo said.

10

Not much to add to the good posts already here. Maybe a couple of things:

  • start playing the song much, much slower than it normal should be, then work up to playing at speed

  • find the intersection points between the vocals and the strummed rhythm - i.e., where you are hitting a syllable right when you are hitting a strum - then, playing and singing slowly, make sure you hit those points together the way you are supposed to - then move to the next intersection point. As you speed up (which can take months, so have courage and patience), it will begin to sound less like like you are stumbling from intersection point to intersection point and more like an actual song…

11

What’s weird is that I have problems playing a song and talking. I can sing fine (relatively), but if you just want me to talk a little while playing something, I stumble. The song “Popular” by Nada Surf is freaking impossible because of that, even though the guitar part is REALLY easy.

12

[QUOTE=Flander]
What’s weird is that I have problems playing a song and talking. I can sing fine (relatively), but if you just want me to talk a little while playing something, I stumble. The song “Popular” by Nada Surf is freaking impossible because of that, even though the guitar part is REALLY easy.
[/QUOTE]

I have read that there is a brain dysfunction some people experience where they lose the ability to speak, but they can still sing just fine. The two abilities are governed by totally different parts of the brain. I wonder if the singing bone is somehow connected to the playing bone.

But like the poster above, I don’t think my speaking bone IS connected to the playin bone. There’s a song by the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band called “Bowleg’s,” with a spoken intro and I can’t do it. Nor can I do the spoken intro to “Tick Tock” by the Vaughn Brothers.

There are a few songs that I can play and sing, but not at the same time. I can’t play the bass line for “The Joker” and sing. I can’t play/sing “What She Does To Me” by the Producers.

My brother can play okay and sing okay but not simultaneously, period. He’ll favor the singing and the rhythm just falls apart.

When I was younger I studied cornet. The teachers made us clap rhythms, tap our feet, etc. I think for many, either that’s ingrained at an early age or not at all. It’s weird though b/c my brother would often tap rhythms with a song on the radio while singing.

I’ve tried playing harmonica with guitar. I don’t think my harmonica bone is connected to my guitar bone AT ALL. I’m concentrating so much on the harmonica that I forget how to play guitar.

So my answer to the OP is, I don’t know. Try tapping your foot 1-2-3-4 as you play/sing. Don’t beat yourself up if you have to struggle a lot. Also, play along with the record so that if you botch a measure or eight measures, you can keep going and get back into the song.

In case you need a source for chords to tunes:

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/

Good luck!

13

[QUOTE=An Arky]
Also, I’m a klutzy ape when it comes to playing and singing, so I write my own songs. It’s much easier when you write something within your own abilities.
[/QUOTE]

I was just discussing this with a friend who had just returned from a concert by The Police. She was marveling about the way Sting could sing and play his complex bass lines simultaneously. I noted it was the same way with Geddy Lee of Rush, Paul McCartney, etc. The key to how they do it is that they write both parts themselves, which means that the two often disparate parts are designed from the beginning to fit together like a hand and glove, and be done by one person.

As a singing bass player myself, I’ve discovered that I have very little trouble singing and playing bass along with Rush songs. On the other hand, there is some music out there that is much simpler than Rush’s stuff, but which I can’t sing and play the bass part simultaneously. For example, Lynard Skynard’s “Gimme Three Steps”. When I sang that song with my old band I had to simplify the bass line in order to do both together. In Skynard the singer and the bassist were two different people, so there was no need to worry about whether both parts could be done by one person. Similarly, I’ve discovered it’s next to impossible for me to play bass and sing Iron Maiden songs. In that case, though, rather than it being a problem of making the two parts fit together, it’s more the fact that both parts require so much energy and focus that one man simply can’t do it.

Well, keep in mind that the original artists probably don’t talk and play those parts simultaneously, either. They’ve got a band behind them to keep the music going while they talk. And of course, blues players are notorious for not playing at all while they sing/talk, playing only the solos and the fill-in licks between vocal phrases (I first noticed this with B.B. King).

14

[QUOTE=Zsofia]
So how the hell do you sing and play the guitar at the same time?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t play, but in my opinion, you’re born with it. You have to be so comfortable with both singing and playing that your body just kind of flows with the music.

I’ve seen people do it poorly…it’s pretty painful to watch.

15

[QUOTE=An Arky]
(side note: I hate using the term “write” in terms of making songs…I don’t sit at a piano with a quill pen and a powdered wig…it’s more like laying eggs or something for me)
[/QUOTE]

Okay, now I’m seeing Mozart squatting over the piano bench and straining. It’s a disturbing image, An Arky. I hope you’re happy…

16

@Mister Rik: true dat. Of course they can lay down tracks in the studio any way they want, so live performance is the issue.

Billy Joel was on the Actor’s Studio, BTW, and was asked about the fact that he puts down the piano and vocals tracks together, which means there’s bleed on the vocal mic from piano. He said how he plays affects his phrasing of the vocals. I can relate; it’s easier for me to sing along when I play guitar than when I’m following someone else.

I think some guitarists like the OP would benefit from some basic exercises. E.g. play four quarter “note” chords, all down strum. Pay attention to making them equal. Then play four quarter note chords, all upstrum. Harder, isn’t it? Then play up down up down…up up down down…etc. Then gravitate to more complicated rhythms, but always be mindful of how even it is.

Being off by that fraction will throw a piece of music out of whack. Your voice may be on the beat, but the guitar gets off (and then your voice tries to follow, repeat, lather until ignominious death).

ETA @Kalhoun: I’m self-taught on guitar but I never had much problem synchronizing voice to guitar. That’s not to say that I didn’t struggle with the guitar part but it wasn’t rhythm- or beat-related. I just couldn’t make the chords smoothly or fast enough.

17

I also am trying to learn to play the guitar. Well, I haven’t in awhile (2 months). I am still at the “how in hell do you contort your fingers into these chords?” stage.

I can reach one note over an octave on the piano, but my fingers do not want to go into guitar chord position. I may never learn at this rate…

18

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
I also am trying to learn to play the guitar. Well, I haven’t in awhile (2 months). I am still at the “how in hell do you contort your fingers into these chords?” stage.

I can reach one note over an octave on the piano, but my fingers do not want to go into guitar chord position. I may never learn at this rate…
[/QUOTE]

My first question would be, “How are you learning it?” I.e. there’s a “classical” training like this:

I can’t play like that and many (most?) popular guitarists can’t or don’t. One hallmark that you often see of a guy not playing it that way: the thumb wrapped up over the fretboard. Here’s Mark Knopfler:

Someone fight my ignorance: is that a duolian he’s playing? Not exactly a guitar but you get the idea.

So my point is that as I play a B7 or Am or whatever, my wrist is shifting around a lot. For B7 my wrist is vertical; for Am it’s horizontal. The super serious Andrés Segovia types have their thumbs anchored on the neck and can’t do that.

For banging out chords and having sing-alongs, it may not matter. If you’re going to get into jazz or really difficult stuff, classical is the way to go.

I’m guessing this kid is classically trained. He makes some really big reaches.

Fun watching him jam on this as well:

19

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]

Fun watching him jam on this as well:

[/QUOTE]

I can’t play a lick of guitar, but I do have an acoustic and plan on learning eventually to match my singing ..

Anyway, watch the kid fly on this one! Damn…

20

[QUOTE=Autolycus]
I can’t play a lick of guitar, but I do have an acoustic and plan on learning eventually to match my singing ..

Anyway, watch the kid fly on this one! Damn…

[/QUOTE]

I wonder what we’ll see from him in ten years. I hope he gets into composing his own stuff and expands the boundaries.