Messianic Jews

[Kolak_of_Twilo]

@cwthree

Regarding the term “Nazarene”, isn’t there already a “Church of the Nazarene” that explicitly identifies as Christian? The founders of JFJ might also have felt that “Nazarene” was a rather obscure term, unlikely to attract modern-day Jews to their movement.

The Church of the Nazarene is a Protestant group that grew out of the Methodist Church and late 19th century American “holiness” or Pentecostal groups. For more info go here. My guess is that the use of this term by JFJ has to do with Jesus being the Nazarene they are referring to. I have no idea how this would relate to the above mentioned church.

[FinnAgain]

Oh, and, this…

@edwino

If your mother is Jewish, it doesn’t matter if you are atheist, Messianic “Jew”, Catholic, Wiccan, or Lubavitch. Yer a Jew, albeit sometimes misguided.

… is not necessarily true.

I actually remember a debate among the highschool senior class at the temple I went to when I was growing up. I can tell you that a great many of my peers did not feel that lineage alone made one a Jew. Now, this may be due to the ‘choose your own adventure’ configuration of Reform Judaism, but it is certainly not an absolute that having a Jewish mother makes you Jewish in the eyes of all Jews.

[Mathochist]

@FinnAgain

Orthodox Jews not recognizing Reform Jews and such.

“Herschel? Is that you? Did you lose weight?”

[DocCathode]

@FinnAgain

I can tell you that a great many of my peers did not feel that lineage alone made one a Jew. Now, this may be due to the ‘choose your own adventure’ configuration of Reform Judaism, but it is certainly not an absolute that having a Jewish mother makes you Jewish in the eyes of all Jews.

This is the first time in my life I have ever heard anybody suggest that being born to a Jewish mother does not make you Jewish.

[FinnAgain]

@DocCathode

This is the first time in my life I have ever heard anybody suggest that being born to a Jewish mother does not make you Jewish.

There’s a first time for everything, and a second for most.

[MsRobyn]

@FinnAgain

There’s a first time for everything, and a second for most.

But only the truly fun stuff.

DocCathode, I got this discussion, as well. Basically, there are some people whose mothers may be Jewish, but their fathers are not, and for whatever reason, the child practices the father’s religion. True, he may be Jewish in the eyes of Judaism, but he is not Jewish in his own eyes, nor is he Jewish in the eyes of others.

Robin

[Captain_Amazing]

Some Reform Jews believe that if someone’s mother is Jewish, his father is not, and he doesn’t consider himself to be Jewish, he’s not Jewish.

[Guinastasia]

@tomndebb

There are Messianic Jews who are not associated with the Jews for Jesus organization. However, they are a rather scattered lot with no strong organization. I have not encountered any who claimed to not be Christian; they simply emphasized that (in their minds, rather than in the view of the Jewish communities) they had not “given up” Judaism.

Given their disparate natures, I suspect that you would have to talk to each group individually to determine their exact views on various topics–and I suspect that you would find any number of inconsistencies among their views. (Not that any individual group would hold self-contradicting doctrines, but that under the “Messianic Jew” umbrella, you would find different groups whose beliefs were in conflict with other similarly identified groups.)

Well, couldn’t they just call themselves Torah Christians or something like that?

[cwthree]

@Guinastasia

Well, couldn’t they just call themselves Torah Christians or something like that?

Yes, they could. This is why many Jews feel that “Messianic Jews” is such a misleading term. “Torah Christians” would be absolutely accurate - Christians whose practice is based on their understanding of the practices of Jesus’ place and time. “Messianic Jews” is not accurate - the theology is not Jewish, and would not have been considered Jewish even in Jesus’ place and time.

[Helen_s_Eidolon]

I would say it’s a fairly rare viewpoint to reject the strict matrilineal quality of Judaism. And to be fair, I personally don’t think it matters a whole bunch what some people sitting around chatting think; I don’t think any denomination (Reform included - with the exception that fathers can count too) has officially rejected this idea.

[tomndebb]

Well, couldn’t they just call themselves Torah Christians or something like that?

Sure. However, they seem to be the ones who picked the name, so my guess is that they wanted to keep their Jewish association in their identifying label.

The name has not been imposed on them from the outside, so we’re stuck with using a term that is not truly (in our opinion) descriptive and that many Jews find offensive. (I have no desire to hunt each of them down and insist that they choose a different label.)

[Shodan]

I worked with a guy whose maternal grandmother was Jewish. He described himself as a Messianic Jew. I assume that, in his case, Jews would consider the name to be accurate.

I think some of the dispute comes from one side considering Judaism as an ethnicity, and the other as a set of religious beliefs.

Regards,
Shodan

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Shodan

I worked with a guy whose maternal grandmother was Jewish. He described himself as a Messianic Jew. I assume that, in his case, Jews would consider the name to be accurate.

Converted Jews are considered to be Christians and no longer Jews. The appelation “Messianic Jew” is not accepted as any sort of valid descriptor even for ethnic Jews. They are former Jews who have converted to Christianity. From The Central Conference of American Rabbis (Reform):

“For us in the Jewish community, anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate. Through that belief she has placed herself outside the Jewish community. Whether she cares to define herself as a Christian or as a ‘fulfilled Jew,’ ‘Messianic Jew,’ or any other designation is irrelevant; to us, she is clearly a Christian.”

I think some of the dispute comes from one side considering Judaism as an ethnicity, and the other as a set of religious beliefs.

This is true but it’s really the religious part that matters. As I said before, Messianic Jews are not eligible to immigrate to Israel under Right of Return and they are not regarded as Jewish by any of the mainline sects of Rabbinic Judaism.

Regards,
Shodan
[/QUOTE]

[Helen_s_Eidolon]

@Diogenes the Cynic

As I said before, Messianic Jews are not eligible to immigrate to Israel under Right of Return and they are not regarded as Jewish by any of the mainline sects of Rabbinic Judaism.

I’m not sure I agree with you. You’ve definitely proven that that’s the Reform position, but I really don’t think it’s anyone else’s position, although I could be wrong.

[Raguleader]

@Mathochist

“Herschel? Is that you? Did you lose weight?”

snerk That was a lot funnier than it should have been. Possibly because I visualized Mel Brooks speaking.

My dad (Jewish) humorously maintains that Jesus was the guy who “knew where all the stepping stones were.” I suppose you could just leave it up to personal interpretation as to whether or not he knew of the stones location due to any sort of divinity-related reasons. ;j

When half your family is Christian (Catholic mostly, though I now have Mormon-in-laws, which proves to be all manner of interesting at family get-togethers) and half your family is Jewish (and more importantly, all of them have my dad’s sense of humor) you learn how to run everything you encounter through a “humor filter”

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Reform is the most liberal denomination. Orthodox and Conservative denominations hold the same or even stronger positions. From Wikipedia:

Messianic Judaism (sometimes Hebrew Christianity) is the common designation for a number of Christian groups which include varying degrees of Jewish practice. These groups have attracted tens (and perhaps hundreds) of thousands of Jews and Christians to their ranks; members identify themselves as Jews. These groups are viewed highly negatively by all Jewish denominations, which typically see them as covert and deceptive attempts to convert Jews to Christianity, a view Messianic-Jewish groups strongly contest.

Hell, there are some ultra-Orthodox sects which don’t even think Reform Jews are Jews, you think they’re going to accept JFJ’s?

[edwino]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Converted Jews are considered to be Christians and no longer Jews. The appelation “Messianic Jew” is not accepted as any sort of valid descriptor even for ethnic Jews. They are former Jews who have converted to Christianity. From The Central Conference of American Rabbis (Reform):

I agree with you about everything except this paragraph. Many Jews consider even converted Jews still Jews. A little story to illustrate:

My friend is very religious. He was working towards a PhD in Neuroscience, which included experiments that needed to be performed throughout the week, including on Shabbos. He obviously could not work on Shabbos, so he asked if the technician that he worked with could come in on Shabbos. No problem, she said. Since she was a Christian, it was not a problem asking her to do experiments for him; he could not ask me OTOH (even though I volunteered to help) because one can’t ask Jews, even nonpracticing Jews (like me), to work on Shabbos.

Well, the technician was something of a genaeology nut, and one day, a few weeks later, she mentioned that one of her great-grandmothers was possibly Jewish, who had converted or just intermarried. Yakov (my friend) gets all worried, and they draw out a family tree just to make sure that that great-grandmother was not in a direct matrilineal descent – if she was, then technician was Jewish, and Yakov could not ask her to work on Shabbos. Turns out that she wasn’t, and said tech was stuck in the lab on Saturdays for another year until he graduated…

In the elegant words of David Cross, who is an emphatic atheist: “Was your mother’s vagina Jewish? Well, then your a Jew!”

[FinnAgain]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Reform is the most liberal denomination.

Quibble: From what I’ve seen, Reconstructionism is more ‘liberal’ than Reform Judaism. YMMV.

[FinnAgain]

@edwino

“Was your mother’s vagina Jewish? Well, then your a Jew!”

On a side note, this is probably the most disturbing gloss of matrilinial descent I’ve ever seen :eek:
(Oh, and, “your” is possesive. Gaudere, strike me down.)

[Shodan]

@Diogenes the Cynic

This is true but it’s really the religious part that matters.

Then I suppose atheists and agnostics couldn’t considered Jewish either.

Although edwino’s observent friend would probably consider an atheist Jew to be Jewish, just like a Christian Jew, non-practicing Jew, etc.

Regards,
Shodan