Serious question, why is stealing considered "wrong"?

There’s nothing intrinsically morally wrong with stealing.

There’s a partly-unspoken social contract that says we constitute a society (culture, tribe, etc), meaning that we have some modicum of fairness and equality, enshrine that in rules, and to some meaningful extent enforce and respect those, making it safer for you and more efficient in the long run for you to obtain what you wish to obtain within, rather than outside of, the established rules. And the rules say “no stealing”.

But back to point one: there’s nothing intrinsically morally wrong with stealing. Hence if, in actuality, there is no fairness and equality, either because the rules as established don’t provide it or because the established rules are not being obeyed and enforced, then we do not, in actuality, constitute a society, at least not from the perspective of everyone present. In that kind of situation, there will be some who will figure that, all illusions aside, what’s actually going on is a grab-what-you-can competition, an interaction between people in which the espousing of rules is just a strategy used to discourage some people from grabbing, and that it is actually safer and more efficient for you in the long run to ignore them and put your mind to stealing what you need in the most efficient way possible.

Possession is a social notion. Ownership is only as real as the reality accorded to it by the people participating in the society.

Sure, ownership is a construct of owners - they have the influence to define the prescribed moral environment.

[quote=“justjake, post:1, topic:728045”]

I don’t understand morals and i think the only reason they were created is so people didn’t run around doing whatever they want.{/quote]

So you do understand morals.

Correct, they were created in every persons’ best interest.

No maybe about it.

I don’t think anyone here begrudged Jean Valjean that loaf of bread. Stealing, while morally wrong, can be the best choice in a given situation, and I’m willing to bet that if you got caught stealing food from the grocery store and went before a judge with proof that you applied for more than 1,000 jobs last year and are still unemployed and unable to feed your family there would be leniency in your punishment. In your specific situation I’d bet that you haven’t applied for more than 2 or 3 jobs in the last few months. Your obsession with needing to make easy money indicates that you probably aren’t trying very hard at all and given that it appears you are still living with your parents and do not face starvation and homelessness because of a lack of income I can’t imagine anyone being sympathetic to you if you are caught stealing at all.

Robin Hood is only a beloved story because he stole from the uberwealthy and gave it all to the poorest of the poor. If he had stolen from the marginally richer so he could have a nicer outfit he never would have gotten his own Disney movie.

None of these seem analogous to theft, unless you’re stealing stuff just to spite the victim and even then these are rather extreme.

I’ve wondered this too since the entire food chain is built on theft. One life form engaged in anabolism and another steals the resources. Theft (and murder) is at the core of life Sadly.

I guess because as a society we function better with individual rights. It isn’t some etherical code handed down from a diety, we have just learned culturally and via evolution that a social group has advantages over individualism and you have to respect the other members of the social group.

I am at a loss as to how to respond to this. Obviously the OP has some basis for his system of moral thinking. Any answer would have to be built off of that basis, whatever it is. But I can’t think of any basis for a system of moral thought which would not make it immediately, nearly tautologically, obvious that stealing is wrong, and I therefore have no clue at all what basis the OP is using.

The thrust of the OP’s complaint was ‘life isn’t fair, some people have it better/easier than I do, therefore I should be entitled to take their stuff’. In other words, he seems to think nobody should have any advantages in life and everyone should be on an equal footing. He did also mention better looks/better genes.

I’ll grant you the examples were fairly extreme though. :slight_smile:

I’d have more sympathy for the guy if, as a young male in a wealthy industrialised nation, he wasn’t already extremely lucky and wealthy (on a global scale, anyway). I doubt he’d be so altruistic if a bunch of homeless beggars broke into his house and stole all his stuff.

The moral basis is The Golden Screw All, explicated nicely hereon a refrigerator magnet.

If you don’t know the person you’re stealing from how do you know whether they were born rich or whether they became rich through their own efforts?

And you haven’t answered any of the questions I asked in my previous post. I had hoped that those specific examples would cause you to think about your rather vague principle and fill in some of the details.

Just a few weeks ago, this kid was worried that someone was going to jack him up for his bling. Now he’s planning the next great train robbery. I assume he hopes to accomplish this with his trusty can of pepper spray.

Good luck with that kid. You’re gonna get your ass handed to ya.

:rolleyes:

In my view, the best way to consider morality and determine moral rules is from a game theory perspective. Without getting too in depth with game theory, we can go with a basic example. Consider tic-tac-toe, it’s a very simple game and an optimal strategy is knowable for any give state of the game. As such, it is correct to make a move consistent with the known optimal strategy and incorrect to make one inconsistent. If one always makes the correct move, one is guaranteed to at least tie, and win if the opponent makes a mistake.; if one doesn’t, one forfeits the chance to win, and possibly even the chance to tie, unless the opponent also makes a mistake.

That isn’t very interesting though, because all the possible states are known. So let’s consider a more difficult game, like chess. In this case, we can’t know all possible states, but we do know what the goal state looks like, and we can come up with heuristics that can determine the advantage or disadvantage of various states, then make judgments based upon looking ahead. The best chess players, human or computer, are the ones that have the best combination of heuristics and the ability to calculate potential future moves. This becomes exponentially difficult because each future move has, on average, tens of possible branches.

How this gets interesting, though, is that, in chess, we can’t be ABSOLUTELY sure that the move we’re making is optimal, and sometimes we’re wrong, but we create a system of reasonable moves based upon this structure we’ve calculated with the intention of maximizing our chances of reaching out goal state.
So, how does this relate to morality? Well, it’s not all that unlike chess, except the dimensionality of the state space is massively large, as the number of players and choices are both much larger. The other problem is that there isn’t exactly a set goal state as there is in most games. However, we can still apply similar principles. In short, for a given moral goal, we can then say an act is moral or not moral if, based upon how we might judge a future situation so many moves ahead, that state maximizes our approach toward that goal.

There’s plenty of potential moral goals, and while I personally believe that maximization of freedom is a self-consistent goal from which we can derive most basic moral rules, we can run from pretty much any reasonable moral goal and get the basic moral rules, and this applies to stealing.

In this case, let’s not look just at the consequences of one person stealing from another, but let’s look “several moves ahead”. That is, if I steal from him and he steals from me, and someone else steals from someone else, what does this lead to? This essentially creates a rule about property rights. Now, we could argue the minutiae of what property rights are and are not of value, but I think it reasonably follows that property rights to at least some extent are necessary to a stable society.

Consider it from this perspective. If I agree not to steal from you as long as you agree not to steal from me, aren’t we BOTH better off? And if I have no means of protecting resources I gather, create, or manipulate through my labor, I now lack incentive of putting in that work if I can obtain those resources with less effort by taking them from others.

For example, looking back to our hunter/gatherer days, if it takes days or even just hours to hunt and bring back food, but only minutes to steal a kill, if stealing is allowed, what’s my incentive in investing days or hours to get a kill when I can just take it from someone else? And if everyone realizes and does this, there’s now no incentive for anyone to hunt, and we’re ALL worse off.
Of course, it’s not quite that simple, because people do seem to have moral issues with those who hoard resources. For example, I think most people would say it’s less morally offensive to steal from a large corporation or a rich person than from a small business or middle class or poor person. And, to a certain extent that makes sense, I suppose. But at the same time, someone who hoards resources and doesn’t share is benefiting themselves, potentially at the cost of others, and thus the immorality is on them. Complicating the situation by adding additional immoral actions doesn’t correct the issue. That would be like, in a game, seeing your opponent make a poor move and, rather than furthering the goal, taking a bad move yourself because you now have some leeway in your move set rather than continuing to take the optimal move.

And, yes, in most games all opponents start off on equal footing, but even in some of those, particularly ones that involve chance, some players may end up with an advantage just because of luck. But it’s not just that simple. If I get lucky and get several good rolls of the dice, if I bet on that streak continuing, I’m probably going to get screwed. The best way to play it is to take advantage of those lucky streaks when they show up and then remain prepared for when a bad streak may come.

And this is where the morality of charity comes in. Regardless of one’s moral goals, in most cases, it is lauded to be charitable. Someone who was lucky and born with great talents or money helps those who are less fortunate, because, in the end, we’re ALL better off. But, again, the way to correct that isn’t to act immorally and TAKE it, it’s rather to encourage those people to be charitable.

There are around 6 billion people who have a religion, and most of their holy texts say stealing is wrong. It’s pretty easy for most of these people to understand right and wrong from a god or religious philosophy like karma since the morality comes from a higher power.

The OP’s assumption that we only live once is not true for a billion people, as most strands of Buddhism and Hinduism have the notion of rebirth or reincarnation.

Taking divine edicts or karma out of the equation, as others have said multiple times here, we have a social contract.

Kant said that if you commit an act that you can’t will for everyone to do commit, then it is immoral. However there are many other similar philosophies about how the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, how rights and possessions should be protected, and how causing harm without justification is wrong.

Keep in mind, once we take God or karma out of the discussion, it could easily slide to post-modern demoralization, which where the OP is already in. This is because we as humans make up morality for the benefit of the community, as we need consistent rules, laws, and social mores. (Keep in mind, you could do something moral, yet be illegal, and ethic dilemmas are usually about tough questions where there is no right or wrong.)

Yes, morality could be an illusion, but it is a necessary part of society for it to function, and the OP could be on the internet and eat pizza. Without it (and laws), the OP would be defending his Playstation from an angry mob at a daily basis.

What the OP pitches is a world of barbarians and anarchy, and resentment towards the “rich” and people born into wealth, which is borderline sociopath but definitely selfish. At best, it’s just youthful zeal of Marxism.

Speaking with some Cubans in Miami, they tell me that one reason why they escaped is because The State did not believe that citizens could have possessions- that any food, business, house, car, or clothes is owned by The State (“The People”). Therefore, it’s not even stealing.

It’s “unto”, not “on to”. Sorry, it was bugging me.

Ambi will now be following you around, correcting your spelling and grammar.:smiley:

Am I correct in assuming the OP has given up on finding a job and is about to resort to a life of crime?

When society devolves into chaos as the OP promotes, don’t be surprised when the value of human life devalues as a result. People will think with even less regard to blowing your ass away for the smallest of provocation.

That was my take on this.

Serious question: if you truly believe it ought to be morally and legally acceptable for a less fortunate person to steal from a more fortunate person, by what leap of logic do you determine that it is acceptable for you to hurt someone who is doing something morally and legally okay?

Specifically: a homeless person attempts to steal something from you. You say you have “a right to defend yourself.” But if the homeless person is allowed to steal from you, why should you have any right to hurt him? He or she is doing something that is perfectly acceptable, according to you. Seems like your “right to self defense” is more like you hurting someone for no good reason at all.

And since it is hard work to be a successful criminal he will soon be posting about his prison accommodations and fellow inmates.