This topic flows from this thread. In it people are taking others to task for stealing.
Here is my question. What is so wrong with stealing? If I am able to steal something from you, it simply means that I happen to be better at taking than you are at holding on to. No one is starving or being subjected to poverty by these acts. Yes, you are taking money, but no one is being harmed. They aren’t being helped, it is a negative act. But no physical or mental harm is happening to the artists or producers.
And don’t tell me it’s wrong because it is against the law. We already went over that here.
Well, you would be rather upset if I stole your car, or your stereo, or your wallet, etc. (Don’t even think about asking to steal anyone’s wife, that’s their own damn burden).
Well, you would be rather upset if I stole your car, or your stereo, or your wallet, etc. (Don’t even think about asking me to steal anyones wife, that’s their own damn burden).
Dammit to hell, sorry about the double post, it had something to do with the stupid “Wait 60 seconds” rule…
Yes. And if I was a Fundamental Christian, I might be rather upset if you engaged in gay sex. That doesn’t make it wrong.
Yes, but gay sex isn’t taking anything away from someone (It can actually be considered giving it to someone :D). Whether gay sex is right or wrong is for the most part a religious opinion. Stealing is completely different.
I don’t see the parallel between gay sex and stealing either. Are you suggesting that there is no such thing as “personal property?”
And your point is…
I know you’re referring to digital music downloads. And yes, taking some song royalties out of “established” artists’ pockets doesn’t exactly chafe the old conscience. HOWEVER… small, independent bands are finding their songs online. For these groups, every royalty is an important one… it’s their paycheck. Are you more entitled to a song than they are to the rewards of their hard work?
Besides, the record fees aren’t just paying Metallica.
They’re also going towards the pay of the janitor who cleans the toilets in the recording studio bathrooms. This is a man who has kids, a wife, a family. He wants to put his kids through college. Don’t you think you’re also stealing from him?
Besides, just because someone’s rich doesn’t justify theft!
Aside from the music download question, the problem of theft is that it is breaking the social contract. In order for a group of individuals to live together, it is necessary to have a one major agreement - don’t take anything that does not belong to you, whether it is an object or a life. As soon as you steal something that is not yours, you’ve broken that contract and set yourself outside the society.
A big, fat generality, sure. You can find lots of extenuating circumstances. Your children were starving and the other guy had more than he needed. She came at you with a knife and you killed her in self-defense. You have to know when it is more ethically correct to break the code/law. But stealing just because you can gets into a lot of ugly stuff. At it’s most extreme, you could say that’s what European settlers did to the native population in North America, South America, Australia, most of Africa, and just about everywhere else.
It all comes down to situational ethics, and I can’t find any ethical justification for stealing the fruits of someone else’s labor.
As someone who used to hang out with a number of musicians, I have some strong feelings on the subject. Not only is it illegal to swap copies of songs without paying royalties, it’s kind of just slapping the producer of the product in the face. I know any “religious” sounding arguments won’t work here, but notice above my post the comment about the janitor sending his kids to college, etc. It’s an excellent point.
Downloading from is the equivilant of finding a guy who’s printing Stephen King novels as fast as he can without authorization and buying the book for only $5. It’s like simply walking away from your student loans or car loans simply because you think you’re too hard to find or that the loaner is all ready rich enough.
If there are any more arguments needed, it’s just not worth the time.
OK, I will now beat you all (well some of you) about the head and face. The OP, though derived from Napster debate, it not specifically asking your opinions about it. There are about 10 threads for that. The question is, what’s wrong with it?
My personal answer: it’s a bit of a nasty thing to do to someone who’s attached to their property. I don’t have too many attachments to my property, so people are generally free to borrow what they want from me, and return it if they fell like it. Course, this applies a little less to crucial things like my CPU…how would I live without it?
Err, by “what’s wrong with it?” I meant stealing, not DLing…
Oldscratch, if you come to that Milpitas doper meet, leave you wallet on the table, please. Thanks.
I took OldScratch’s comment to mean the morality issue.
I’m being taken to town for not feeling bad about the Napster issue. Fine. That’s being addressed.
What I think Scratch was alluding to was the amount of morality being spewed out by a bunch of righteous wanna-be’s. It’s kinda a ‘well your a theif and I’m a Saint’.
Scratches comment that homosexual sex might offend his/her religion seems to me to be the same argument being posed the anit-Napster people. That is, my morals are better than yours. And if it infringes on my morality than it should not be allowed. And those of you who engage in this are morally wrong and should be ashamed of yourself.
“I’d never do it and never have” seems alot like a morality statement to me.
** Disclaimer-- I have no idea what scratch truly means. I’m making assumptions based **solely[/] on how I took the statement. Nothing more
My position on the matter is very strict: all property rights could generally boil down to human rights. Therefore, stealing is in direct violation of my rights as a human being. It doesn’t matter if you are stealing/taking my life, or stealing/taking my money.
Oldscratch
If a person comes along a steals $100 from me, where did that $100 come from? I had to work for that $100. I spent an hour (I wish it was only an hour) for that money. I worked during that time for that money. The thief, in essence, stole that time from me, that portion of my life.
Zev Steinhardt
Basically, it can get your rear end kicked if you steal from the wrong people, or steal from people with certain connections (e.g. the respectability needed to get a cops attention these days) who will also possibly kick your ass.
Now, if you are stealing from the powerless that just plain is not nice.
If you are saying it is OK to steal because you can get away with it, you still might not get away with it too long, and such an act tends to sour your relations with others.
Now, here’s a poser. If you are locked in a rich man’s silo, is it wrong to eat his grain?
… the terminology needs to be established.
This article deals with the “theft” involved in the Napster issue and centers on Lars Ulrich, a member of Metallica involved in the Napster conflict.
Copyright infringement is not the same thing as theft.
From: The RIAA: Redefining the English Language.
http://www.dmusic.com/news/news.php?id=2818
a. People have a right to own property.
b. Intellectual Property is a form of property.
The fact that those two rights are codified in law pretty much universally around the world is secondary. They are codified into law because the vast majority of humans agree that these are fundamental rights of people.
And there’s another thing: possessions exist because people create them. People create them with the expectation of selling them to make their own lives better. If people are allowed to steal, people will no longer have incentive to produce.
Almost. You should be ashemed of the act.
I would say the same to wife beaters, rapists, people who cheat at cards, adulterers, arsonists, bullies, liars, etc. Obviously these acts are not all equivalent.
I say it to myself when I do something wrong, too. I consider it a part of having a developing conscience.
As to the OP: Theft is wrong because it represents a breakdown in empathy with another human being. In stealing from you, I reduce you to inconsequential status in my mind. You become less than human that I might satisfy my desire for material benefit. As I consider empathy to be the cornerstone of ethics, I view stealing to be wrong.