Sorry for the delay in the response. My first day back to work after leave and I barely got to surf the dope. Thanks for all the good responses. I don’t have a special need to carry nor any special permission, as someone asked. While deployed , I got used to toting a rifle with me everywhere, came home and bought a gun for home defense. I have fired several thousand rounds with my Taurus .357 magnum revolver, and now the people at the range that I go to can usually fill out my permission slip for me while I browse the gun shop. I have been thinking that the only time a gun cannot protect you is when you do not have it on you, so I want something that I can and will carry. A holster is out, because I don’t often wear jackets and having an exposed handgun may cause problems at the local Wal-Mart. So I am looking for something that is reliable, small, and powerful. The trouble is that here, at the ranges I frequent, the only concealable handguns they have for rental are Kel-Tecs, which IME are not as reliable as you would want in a personal defense weapon. I do appreciate the suggestions, and I agree, that if I was in a firefight, maximum ammo is not my concern. Escaping the fight or neutralizing the target is my first ambition.
And thanks, BearNenno for the suggestion of Fla. I am a Florida resident and am going to look into that ASAP.
That would depend on his location. I know that in my state (WA) it’s legal to carry openly, even without a license.
Open carry is illegal in Florida, however. I believe it’s legal in North Carolina, though localities may prohibit it, and I think that some do. Not sure though, as I’m not from NC myself and have never researched the local laws in depth.
I’m not exactly in favor of the open carry for myself, however. As I said, it does tend to create its own problems. Added to the fact that it is definitely not encouraged while in uniform stateside.
Not that I carry, but I can suggest that Desert Eagles, model 29’s (wth 10+ inch barrels) and anything drilled and tapped with the Snake Pliskin/xXx rifle scope be dropped from the ‘carry’ list?
Also, unless you’re Scaramanga, may I suggest you factor out the pricey off-calibers? When its $9 a box vs $30 a box of ammo, it actually does make a difference.
Not necessarily. There are some in-the-pocket holsters that unobtrusively hook to your belt, and there are “inside the shirt” rigs, too, so a lack of jacket does not mean lack of carry. Also, don’t rule out ankle holsters, though they’re hard to get to fast. Try a number of different rigs, and talk to your local cops - they carry off-duty, and will have a lot of practical experience on which to draw.
Well, you’re already familiar with a wheelgun, and know the power of a .357 Magnum… There are some very, very good choices along that line, starting with the redoubtable Ruger SP101 and the S&W M686 - two fine medium-frame revolvers that will suit an inside the waistband rig, or a pocket holster - Or even just a pocket. S&W has even smaller-frame revolvers than that.
Mind you, I’m no wheel-gun bigot, but if you’re used to them, and are familiar with the kick of a .357 or .38sp+P, you could do a lot worse - They meet all four of my criteria (above) for me. They might do for you, too.
Without getting into the whole gun control/CCW issue that’s about to explode underfoot, I’ll point out that any gun small enough to truly be a “pocket gun” is going to be a severe compromise in either stopping potential (small, light caliber) or controlability (tiny cannon like the Glock 36 in .45 ACP). There are a number of reasons I’d recommend going with a holstered weapon, including that it secures the gun better, enforces a discipline and awareness that you’re carrying a firearm (and all of the obligations and liabilities that go with that), is safer and more accessible, and less likely to be forgotten, stolen, or left in an anteroom somewhere.
There seems to be a significant proportion of posters suggesting .40S&W or larger over the 9mmPara, but the one-shot stop statistics don’t really bear this out; at best, you’re getting a couple percent increase in effectiveness in exchange for a larger, higher recoil round. All things being equal I’d agree that a larger bullet is preferable, if for no other reason than it’s more likely to expand, but with a subcompact gun I wouldn’t aver from the more managable 9mmPara which has some respectable defense loadings, and is superior to the .38 Spl. Personally, I’d either get a Sig subcompact, one of those Springfield XD subs, or if you can find it, an H&K P7M8, which is one of the most accurate subcompact 9mmP’s available (sadly, out of production). If you could tolerate something slightly larger I’d go for the Sig P229 in either 9mmP or .40S&W, the HK P2000, or the compact Springfield XD. I’m not a big fan of the Glock but a lot of people like them, so whatever rolls for you.
One point of note: carrying concealed is a significant responsibility, and requires vigiliance. Unless you have a genuine need to carry, it rapidly becomes a real pain in the ass to pick out the right clothing, adjust the holster so it doesn’t poke you in the ribs, the kidney, or the spine, make sure it’s clean and secure, et cetera. For most people it’s really not worth the effort, though for those whom it is, non-discretionary CCW laws permit one to carry effective protection and still be law-abiding. But don’t think it’s going to protect you against unseen threats, and don’t let carrying a firearm cause you to feel tougher or more capable; if that’s the case, it’s better left at home. I’m sure you know all of this and my apologies if this comes off as patronizing, but it deserves to be reinforced.
The choice of weapon has been covered to the point that I can’t add anything of value to it.
Allow me to digress slightly and say that for legal reasons, should you ever wind up in court for using said weapon, I have read some articles that recommend you always use factory loaded ammo. Seems that sometimes the prosecuting or defense attorney will try to make a case for you being a wild-eyed killer if you load your own rounds.
That’s not much, but I have to go now. The articles I mentioned were from back in the 1970s and 1980s, so I don’t have a cite and therefore only submit the above reasoning for your consideration.
I wish you the best in finding the best choice for your situation!
[slight hijack] I have been thinking about getting a pistol for target shooting and home protection. The issue is that I have fairly small hands. A Colt Commander is frankly too large for my hand (I can’t reach the slide lock safety without changing my grip)
So what do you suggest? I think I would like to stick with a .40 or 9mm, but I will go to a .380 if I have to get a grip that fits my hand.
[/hijack]
Try a Browning Hi-Power or a CZ-75? I have pretty small hands myself (glove size 7.5) and the Browning is a distressingly natural fit. I’m told that most people will want to refit them with biteless hammers, but I’ve never had a problem when I rented one out at the range.
The CZ-75 is a tiny bit bigger and has a slightly longer first trigger pull (the first one is double-action), but a slim-grips package takes away the first part of that difference and I’ve found I don’t mind the second.
I’m looking to get a handgun eventually, and those are the two contenders right now. Both of them come in 9mm and .40, too - the .40S&W Browning is a little bit bigger, and sizewise they’re even closer.
Generally, this is true, but not always. See my comments about the medium-frame revolvers, above; .38sp+P or +P+, or .357 magnum can be controllably fired out of either, and will do what you need, even from a 2 1/2" barrel. Added bonus, you can practice with cheaper, lighter-recoil .38sp ammo most* of the time.
*(but not all! - need to practice with full-up rounds, too!)
So, I’ll ask again, and see if someone can answer without rolling their eyes. . .
Why don’t you just carry concealed without a permit?
Do you often get randomly searched by cops?
Do you really think that there’s enough of a possibility of ever having to use it that it’s worth going through the permit process?
Is your mindset simply, “it’s the law, so I gotta do it”?
I don’t know too many hand-gun owners here (a couple who don’t seem to want to carry). But, my French brother-in-law sometimes brings his gun with him when they go out in Paris. He just carries it with him. I’m sure it’s illegal, but it’s not like he’s getting randomly searched. FWIW, it makes him feel good, but my sister hates when he brings it.
Because in a cost-benefit evaluation, there’s simply NO reason to suffer the consequences of carrying an unlicensed concealed weapon when it’s virtually costless to get a license to carry one.
No license (free) -> get caught -> suffer stiff punishment
License (virtually free) -> get “caught” -> nothing happens
Shirking the law just for the sake of shirking the law is juvenile.
Not nearly as much as obeying the law just for the sake of obeying the law.
Of course, I don’t see where anyone said anything like “i want to shirk the law just for the sake of shirking the law.”
Because what I was talking about what shirking a law that doesn’t make much sense, and avoiding the hassles one needs to go through in order to be fully compliant, all predicated on the assumption of something VERY rare happening (getting searched or having to actually use your gun).
Knock yourself out. I’m more risk averse than that. On the off chance that I DO need to use the gun, it seems foolish to risk a punishment that I could have easily avoided.
Also, perhaps that threat of punishment makes me hesitant to use it when I actually SHOULD use it.
Somebody already mentioned the CZ-75 and derivatives, which are great guns (the EAA Witness is probably the best of the bunch, save perhaps for the extremely pricey Sphinx 3000), but you might also check out the Walther P99 and the H&K P2000, both of which have replacable backstraps to fit to your hand and are otherwise excellent pistols. The Glock also has a pretty compact grip, but I personally don’t like the grip angle and am otherwise unimpressed with its ergonomics (though I’ll admit it is durable and reliable) so I don’t recommend it.
Because it’s against the law. Because if you do get caught with it, or have to use it, you’ll suffer significant penalty, possibly including a felony conviction which will then make it illegal for you to own firearms. Because it’s a careless, thoughtless act that is indicative of someone who hasn’t really considered the implications and responsibilities of carrying a firearm in public; someone who has seen one too many Lethal Weapon films and thinks tucking a Beretta 92F into their waistband is a cool thing to do.
Because it’s just a plain fucking stupid thing to do unless you are under a credible and immediate threat, and totally unnecessary in a state which issues non-discretionary concealed carry permits.
I wonder if your French brother-in-law is familiar with the penalties for illegally carrying a handgun in Paris, and what French prisons are like. I suspect if he really appreciated this he’d be less casual about tucking a gun in his wasteband for a casual walk in the park. But hey, if it “makes him feel good,” why worry about things like legality and liability; better to be the tough guy who is ten feet tall and bulletproof 'cause he has a 9mm poking between his but cheeks.
If you do have to use it, which is the point of carrying after all, you’re looking at a much rougher road in court. Getting a permit isn’t that big of a deal and the carry classes often keep you updated on new laws or court decisions, which can be well worth your time.
If (or “back when”) it was nearly impossible to get a permit, that’d be a different story. $200 and 5 hours is all it took ($100 and a 4 hour class + $100 and an hour at the Sheriffs office getting the paperwork filled out). Even considering that my name is on their list, and every cop that runs my plate is notified that I might be armed, it’s just not worth the risk.
Why is it any more “careless and thoughtless” to carry without a permit?
Why is it “just plain fucking stupid unless you’re under a credible threat” to carry without a permit, but it’s not plain fucking stupid to carry with a permit?
Is there something about getting the permit that confers magical powers to the permit bearer?
And, yes. . .my French BIL is familiar with the laws. He carries a gun in case he needs it, and isn’t worried about getting caught with it.
