Disclosure, I personally do not feel my safety increases as a greater number of people around me carry loaded wepaons. But I wonder what advocates of concealed carry think about a couple of things.
Do you/they desire to carry primarily for personal protection or to protect others? (Or is such distinction meaningless?)
I keep thinking of variations on the following situation, and wonder how concealed carry advocates would respond. Say I’m carrying a pistol as I walk through a crowded mall. I hear a gunshot behind me. I pull my gun and turn, and see 2 or more people holding handguns. What do I do? How do I tell whether either/both/neither of the gunholders I see are bad guys? I’d have to imagine such a situation would be tough for trained LEOs/military - have trouble imagining how the average person would successfully handle it.
You’re carrying either for your immediate personal protection and/or the protection of the people you’re with. While there’s evidence that having law abiding citizens carry deters personal crimes against everyone, you’re not specifically carrying for that deterrent effect. It just comes naturally as a result of having more people carry.
You’re not a cop. You’re not obligated nor trained to start trying to sort out complex criminal situations. You don’t immediately pull out your weapon for one thing - doing that before you know what’s going on may get you shot. You assess the situation and try to figure out if there’s an immediate threat to your safety. If there is, you take action. If not, try to escape. Now if anyone starts gunning down random innocent people, you could choose to intervene, but I suppose that’s really one of those situations where you don’t know what you’ll do before you’re in it.
But in general, concealed carry means you’re trying to avoid fights, not seeking them out. You aren’t law enforcement. Protect yourself and those under your protection. If you’re faced with an unambiguous situation, say a spree shooting, in which someone is threatning others, then you’d be right to take action too. But throwing in some sort of hypothetical that would confuse even a hardened cop is pretty far fetched. In that situation, protect yourself and escape. Don’t go shooting people unless you’re certain they’re a threat to you.
Disclaimer, I haven’t gotten my concealed carry permit yet, but I plan to at some point. I don’t feel unsafe without a weapon, nor do I want to play a hero, nor do I plan to normally carry a weapon (I even hate keys in my pocket) so I’ll go with option three, because I want to exercise my right to do so.
As to the scenario, it depends on what they were doing. I would probably draw my weapon just in case, but not fire unless I was absolutely sure who the bad guy was and if s/he was a continued threat.
FWIW, in Ohio the law, or at least instruction, is that you don’t draw your weapon until the situation is so dire that you feel that you are justified in shooting. You don’t fire warning shots or try to get control of the situation like a police officer would. I mean, if you’re actually in that situation, then you could try to go that route, but it’s generally against recommendations. It’s hard to answer because you can concoct all sorts of hypotheticals. There are situations in which just brandishing can probably save the day (and my instructor went over examples of those even though technically it’s a crime to do so), but again, one of the key points is that you aren’t law enforcement. You shouldn’t be running around waving a gun while you try to figure the situation out.
Thanks for the move. I realized the improper forum as son as I posted.
And thanks for the thoughtful response SenorBeef. I think a significant problem I have with widespread ready gun access/use is that while there are some very reasonable positions that can be advanced supporting it, I simply do not have great faith in the majority of my fellow Americans being that reasonable and responsible (if that makes any sense).
FWIW, I’ve known a lot of people that carry, and they tend to be pretty level headed people. I’ven ever met anyone who carried because they wanted to feel macho or something like that. And the statistics bear this out - people licensed to carry concealed are far less criminal than the average person and IIRC they also have far fewer negative incidents in regards to improper shootings than police do.
Whenever a state was debating concealled carry, there would be people testifying and claiming that we’d have gunfights over parking spots and all that nonsense. And as more states went over one by one, and no real problems ever emerged, they were still screaming the same thing, 20 years and 20+ states later.
The reality is that the media would jump on the chance if people with a concealed carry permit fucked up and killed people in an unjustified way, or otherwise caused problems. You have millions of people who’ve been licensed to carry in the US, and hundreds of millions of man hours spent doing it, and almost nothing bad has come out of it.
No, the distinction is not meaningless. When I carry (which isn’t often), I do so to protect myself. I am not playing junior cop, and am under no obligation to protect others (although depending on the circumstances, I may decide to do so).
Nothing - at least not yet. In the scenario you describe, my life is not yet in immediate danger (and my gun would still be in its holster). I can choose to either retreat, or to watch. If a spree shooting is in progress, it’s going to quickly become apparent who the spree shooters are - they’re the guys shooting at unarmed fleeing people. Whether or not I engage them depends on whether or not I’m confident I can take them out without injuring others.
If a spree shooting is not occurring, I’m not getting involved. Let the gangbangers or whoever they are duel it out; I’m taking cover and letting the police sort the whole thing out.
And if I DO become involved in a shootout with a spree killer, I do so knowing there is a nonzero chance that I could indeed be mistaken for one of the bad guys by the police (or other armed parties) and end up getting shot by them. It’s a small chance, as the police don’t usually shoot people who drop their weapon when ordered to do so, but it is a risk. It’s up to me to decide if it’s a risk worth taking.
Carry by private citizens should be for personal protection. You are not a peace officer, you are likely not versed in law enforcement protocol, combat tactics, or the penal code. This doesn’t mean that you absolutely shouldn’t intervene in the case that one party is unambiguously perpetrating an assault again a non-aggressive, non-instagatory party, but you should be very circumspect. In general, you should desire to avoid conflict whenever possible; drawing and using your weapon should be an action of last resort when either leaving the scenario or seeking protection is not feasible. The legal and liability consequences of an actual fight, even if a shooting is deemed justifiable, are too significant to take casually. This is not a television show.
That is exactly the problem. For all you know, one of the parties may be an off-duty or plainclothes peace officer performing a legal arrest. In such a situation, seek cover and don’t fire unless one is clearly identified as a threat to you. This is especially true in a crowded environment where a missed shot or ricochet may injure an uninvolved party.
While I’m not opposed to properly trained concealed carry by private citizens, the truth is that it requires diligence and discipline, caries significant liability, is generally a pain in the ass with all but the smallest (and least effective) weapons, and is unnecessary for the vast majority of people who don’t live in a combat zone or frequent high crime neighborhoods. It certainly isn’t a panacea for self-protection, and anyone who thinks it necessary to carry a firearm for self-protection should also carry some less-than-lethal means for protection and maintain a heightened sense of situational awareness at all times, as well as dress and use concealment methods that avoid ‘printing’ or exposing the weapon.
And as duly authorized agents of the state, police have significantly more legal protection than CCW citizens do if their shots miss the violent criminal and hit an innocent party. Which is all the more reason to keep my gun in its holster: trying to play hero could end with me facing civil or even criminal charges, even if my intervention almost certainly lowered the overall body count (and that won’t be possible to prove).
Agree 1000%. No one should ever think concealed carry is as simple as just getting your permit and then tucking a loaded gun into your pocket. Do it right, or don’t do it at all - and doing it right is a lot of work. And most of the time a cell phone is of more use than the gun is. The firearm is merely the cherry on top of the self-defense sundae, not the ice cream.
You better ask each one. For me, I carry one only if the journey is fraught with risks. This includes accompanying my kid or wife to a tough section, bringing something very valuable outside, etc. These cases don’t come often because I like to avoid those places regardless. And I will take ‘it’ out only if my life is in real danger. “Personal safety” extends to one’s family of course. If you’re looking to protect others, then you have even more latitude than policemen. Cops carry guns mainly to protect themselves while on the job.
Again, your gun is to protect yourself and only if someone is about to kill you. You reacted wrongly inside that mall. If you’re carrying and trouble erupts, you get the hell out of there. Think what the cops will do if they arrive and see you holding a gun.
I’m curious - did you have any experiences that made you think carrying was a good idea or necessary? I’m just trying to think of any situations in my 52 years in which I would have been better off if I had been armed.
I wish there were a way to allow the type of conscientious carry described in this thread, and prohibit the types of yahoos who make the news carrying into Starbucks.
Wouldn’t the guy in Florida, Zimmerman, fit into the category of concealed carry done wrong?
I live in a state where there are more cows than people. Granted, I live in the most populated part of the state, but one of my hobbies (amateur astronomy) can find me driving remote rural roads at 3 AM. If I have car problems out there, it’s going to be quite a wait before AAA shows up - and the sort of person who pulls over to “help” a solo female traveler stuck on a rural highway late at night isn’t the sort of person most people would want to be dealing with. That’s why I carry - and traveling at night or on a solo road trip is generally when I’m carrying. I can’t carry at work and don’t feel comfortable leaving a loaded gun locked in my car all day, so everyday carry really isn’t an option for me, but since I don’t have a stalker and my building at work is locked down, I don’t think that restriction is much of a problem.
(Also, having a carry permit greatly simplifies transporting firearms to/from the range, and it exempts me from a local registration law - so there are some reasons to want a carry permit independent of whether one plans to actually carry on his/her person.)
Hard to say, because we don’t know exactly what happened between Zimmerman and Martin (and probably never will). Zimmerman may have been perfectly justified in pulling the trigger when he did. But could the whole thing have been avoided if he’d stayed in his car? Maybe yes, maybe no - but if Zimmerman goes to prison, that will be the reason: he seems to have initiated the contact (although it’s perfectly legal to approach a person who’s in a public place and talk to them, so Zimmerman’s getting out of the car isn’t a violation of any law). This is a perfect example of what Stranger was saying up thread: there are great legal risks when carrying, and you must be VERY circumspect and VERY prudent if you’re going to avoid trouble. It’s perfectly possible to justifiably shoot someone and still go to jail for doing so. That’s why the “junior policeman” or “action movie hero” mentality is so dangerous, and why the carry courses I’ve taken have strongly stressed that avoiding trouble in the first place and leaving the scene if some unexpected trouble breaks out are the very first steps anyone carrying should take.
I have never been in a situation yet where I would have been more comfortable carrying. I’ve been licensed for about a year, but don’t carry.
I mainly got the license because I don’t want to be in a situation where I’m transporting a firearm in some obscure way that the police will have a problem with it if I’m stopped. The nuances of what is a concealed weapon in a car is difficult to weed through and I feel could be subjective to the whim of the officer at the time. With a license, it gives me a bit more protection against what may be viewed as illegal possession when I’m transporting it in my car.
Similarly, I got my state FOID when my kid was doing Rev War reenacting, and I was buying him powder and driving him and his musket to and from events. Now that he is an adult, I let it lapse.
Couple things (already touched on, I’ll add my $.02):
the gun is the last resort. I won’t draw until I have a reasonable understanding of the situation and the threat. If I hear a shot my first thought is going to be about getting myself and my family to some cover.
Anyone who fires a shot, whether they hit anything or not, whether it’s justified or not, permit or not is going to be placed under arrest. It’s illegal to discharge a weapon within just about every city in the US. Hopefully the charges get dropped, you’re released, everything justified, all works out, etc. Will legal fees come into play - there’s a damn good chance of that, regardless of the circumstances. Once under arrest, best to stay quiet and call a lawyer. That’s gonna cost you. I’m not willing to put my life, my welfare, my finances, or my freedom on the line for just anyone. There are no happy endings to a gun fight.
There is a lot of fog surrounding that situation, but it seems pretty obvious that Z perceived of himself in some kind of neighborhood watch, junior cop capacity. And I never heard ANYTHING to suggest Z would have been in danger if he had stayed in his frigging car as the cops instructed him.
I guess I really don’t want this thread to turn into a rehashing of this incident, but do any responsible gunowners and concealed carry advocates think Zimmerman acted as he should have in that instance?
I am in Ohio and I’ve had a CHL for many years. I always carry when I am out-n-about. I usually open carry, though there are times when I conceal it.
Primarily for personal protection. Though if I have a family member with me, it is for their protection too, obviously. I may or may not come to the defense of a stranger – it entirely depends on the situation. It is more likely I will not. But again, it depends on the situation.
Good question. And I don’t have a good answer. My first inclination would be to try to find cover, and then gather information. During this time, I may or may not pull my weapon. If I do, it will primarily be for my personal protection and the protection of any family member who is with me.
Unfortunately I have had some (more than 2 ) times other than military when having a gun on my person or in quick reach has ( IMO ) saved the day or at least prevented potential bad things.
Several in my family had had the same. Some of my siblings are pretty much anti - gun types. Thankfully it does on cause internal strife in the family.
What I find strange is that a lot of people who have never been in an accident - incident will think that anyone who has been the victim in several accidents - incidents MUST be partly responsible because it has never happened to them. So they must be somehow at least partly to blame.