I’ve noticed in several threads, like this one, and this one and about half the threads in Cafe Society, that Star Wars fans seem to get really hostile when their films are questioned. Any “alternative” reading is greeted with responses like “did you even watch the movies?” [sub]My response would be “no, dumbass, I pulled this point by point reference to the films out of my ass”[/sub]
I guess the reason I find this odd is that questioning the films is not a personal attack. Some of the entertainment I enjoy does get personal attacks from those who don’t enjoy it- I like horror movies, so some would say I must be an anti-social misogynistic freak who enjoys seeing women tortured [sub]umm… no[/sub] I enjoy hip-hop music, so some would say I must be a crude thug who lives in the ghetto and drinks malt liquor [sub]nope again[/sub] I watch pornography, so some would say I must be a horny freak with little or no sex-life [sub]Ok, one out of three aint bad[/sub]
Watching a movie from a deconstructive POV is not insulting the fans of said movie. No one has insulted Star Wars fans for enjoying their movies, hell, the fact that so much can be read into them suggests that they are a lot deeper than I would havethought. So why the hostility?
You’re dealing with fantasy, not just film. Like Star Trek, Star Wars attracts not only people who enjoy the movies, but people who would really prefer the Star Wars world (at least for awhile). If you come in and deconstruct a fantasy, people are likely to get mad. I know I don’t watch shows like Star Trek, movies like Star Wars, or even read books like Lord of the Rings in order to engage in some film/literary criticism. I like fantasy (and futuristic fantasy / science fiction) because it’s fun to think about a world so wondrous and different. When I look at LOTR, yes, I do think it is a classic, and I do enjoy the writing, but ultimately I (like Frodo) am in love with the Shire (and lots of other places, people and things in Middle Earth). When I’m reading about Gollum, I’m not thinking “Well, what does this guy represent” or “gee, I wonder what symbolism is at work here”; I’m imagining, and enjoying, the character as a part of a tale. There just isn’t much of a place for a person who wants to analyze fantasies in the same forum as fans who want to discuss facts and timelines, or “Gee, wasn’t the Yoda lightsabre scene totally kickass!”. This is not to say that fans can’t be that way, of course, but you can’t just wander into any Star Wars thread and expect it.
Another thing is that people tend to be overreactive on online bulletin boards, and that the most passionate of fans also tend to be the most vocal. But hey, ruining the suspension of disbelief is definitely right up there.
I actually enjoyed Attack of the Clones, although I was dissapointed enough in Phantom Menace that I only decided to see it (ep. II) after friends whose opinions I trust said it was a return to form.
True, but when someone points out specific instances they could only have noticed by seeing the film, “Did you even see it?” seems childish. Pointing out, “hey, you seem to have missed this part” would be a much less elementary school playground response.
When forms of entertainment I enjoy are attacked, I try to point out flaws in the attacker’s argument rather than saying “I’m rubber and you’re glue”. Specifically, when someone attacks horror movies as misogynistic I have to accept that they have a point while pointing out the many that aren’t and that many fans don’t enjoy those types of movies.
Read some of the many threads attacking hip-hop, and compare the defense to the defense of Star Wars.
With regard to your first example, which I’ll admit I only skimmed, it’s probably because fans are fans- it may be incomprehensible to a fan, (who by definition has a possibly unhealthy degree of familiarity with the films,) that someone might think that the Republic tolerated slavery - it was made abundantly clear that Tatooine was not a Republic planet, but was controlled by the Hutts, described as “gangsters.” Amidala is shocked to find slavery on the planet, and and says “Where I come from, we don’t have slavery.” The little brat’s mother is told “If this were a Republic world, we’d have discovered him by now.”
As regards your second example, I don’t think it has so much to do with people being “fans” or not, so much as being dedicated Dopers. We hold logic, reason, and objective analysis in high regard here, and anyone who tries to argue an illogical point can expect people here to take umbrage. (Fightin’ Ignorance, and all that, dontcha know.)
In that thread, two people repeatedly assert that[ul][li]An alien whose speech patterns are based on a “reptilized” Bela Lugosi accent is in fact an asian stereotype, even though they can not offer any points of consonnance with aforementioned stereotype.[]Site-gags that are based on the performances of Buster Keaton and Harold Lloyd are based on minstrel shows.[]Jar-Jar is based on “Stepin Fetchit”, although they cannot name any specific parallells.[/ul]Your own attempts to support this view are beneath contempt- not because of some incomprehensible taboo against criticizing Star Wars - (I myself wouldn’t be the least bit grieved if all existing prints of the 3rd and 4th films were run through a shredder, fed to the pigs, and then buried- ) it’s because of your unfathomably obtuse “reasoning”:[/li]
Anyone who is incapable of supporting their opinions with a logical, reasoned argument here is very likely to be met with scorn and derision – unless they are fortunate enough to be able to coast on charm.
If someone seriously gives credence to the idea that Led Zeppelin songs contain Satanic messages which can be heard by playing the record backwards is going to get a drubbing here - and it’s not because we’re a bunch of stoner Led Zep fans - it’s just that the “smartest, hippest people on the planet” get a lot of joy out of tormenting “a few total dipsticks.”
I’m a big Star Trek/Star Wars fan, and defensiveness is something I come across all the time. Usually, when I tell someone I’m a fan, they give me a look like I have ants crawling out of my pants and try to get away as soon as possible. With that kind of attitude to contend with constantly, why not be defensive?
So dropping all other common points with a stereotype in order to discredit one point, thereby claiming the whole comparison is false is not being a “total dipstick”?
In that thread I offered a reasonable analogy: the face on mars.
Just because the face wasn’t built by alien intelligence, and in fact doesn’t exist doesn’t mean people didn’t see it. The face was formed by rocks and shadows, combined with the viewer’s natural inclination to see a human face where none exists.
You could consider the difficulty in creating a unique alien accent to be the rocks, the inherent racism in the adventure serials of Lucas’ youth that he is attempting to recreate to be the shadows, and consider that some are more sensitive to racial portrayals than others to equate with the human inclination to see faces. What do you come up with? It wasn’t intentional, but the people who saw it aren’t delusional- especially those like monstro and myself who said it wasn’t intentional.
So dropping all other common points with a stereotype in order to discredit one point, thereby claiming the whole comparison is false is not being a “total dipstick”? So nice of you to drop all the other “non-shuffling” cartoon characters I mentioned.
In that thread I offered a reasonable analogy: the face on mars.
Just because the face wasn’t built by alien intelligence, and in fact doesn’t exist doesn’t mean people didn’t see it. The face was formed by rocks and shadows, combined with the viewer’s natural inclination to see a human face where none exists.
You could consider the difficulty in creating a unique alien accent to be the rocks, the inherent racism in the adventure serials of Lucas’ youth that he is attempting to recreate to be the shadows, and consider that some are more sensitive to racial portrayals than others to equate with the human inclination to see faces. What do you come up with? It wasn’t intentional, but the people who saw it aren’t delusional- especially those like monstro and myself who said it wasn’t intentional.
It’s also easier. It’s a quick way of asking “Did you not pay much attention to such-and-such part that explains your criticism?”
I mean, let’s face it, we’re all tired of poor critique of good movies. I remember I once read a review of the play Dancing at Lughnasa that criticised the actors for their poor Scottish accents… when the characters were supposed to be Irish. If they’re not even going to pay attention to something, then they shouldn’t bother criticising it.
On the other hand, it’s perfectly valid to say “I didn’t like it so much I didn’t watch the whole thing”… but if you do that, don’t get nitpicky.
And, again, this is hardly something unique to Star Wars… it happens with just about any popular movie.
Don’t make me hurt you, Jin. Weirddave used to pull stuff like that all the time, and I put a curse on him. Now look… he’s getting married! Fear my Phat Righteous Warsie Voodoo, baby.
Nick “Winters”: Hey, wait a minute! This is the Nick “Winters” show, and I do the entertaining, thank you! Let’s go out with something really hot for these folks, alright? A big hit on the '77. [ singing ] “Ah… Star Wars! Nothing but Star Wars! Gimme those Star Wars… don’t let them end! Ah… Star Wars! If they should bar wars… please let these Star Wars stay-ay! And, hey! How about that nutty Star Wars bar? Can you forget all those creatures in there? And, hey! Darth Vader in that black and evil mask - did he scare you as much as he scared me-e-e-e?” [ turns and screams when he finds Paul the Pianist wearing a Darth Vader mask ] My seventh winter up here! [ singing ] “Star Wars-s-s-s!”
[ the crowd applauds as the scene fades to black ]
Perhaps the real question should be why do people that don’t like Star Wars have to be such assholes about it?
There certainly are fans that go overboard, but most of us know that Star Wars isn’t Schindler’s List. But why do Star Wars detractors seem to feel they have some misson to inform us that our beloved films are not high art? They interrupt our discussions with poignant remarks like “That’s cause Lucas just made the whole thing up!” Really? You don’t say? Well thank you for the info, don’t let us slow you down on your way to the next showing of Yentl. Tell Barbara hi for us.
I think it’s because some folks want to elevate Star wars to something higher, especially when they start spouting stuff about “The Hero With a Thousand Faces” and Joseph Campbell.
I mean, I like the movies as much as the next fanboy, but I don’t delude myself that it’s little more than Flash Gordon with a new coat of paint.
