this was brought up in a conversation a friend and i had about that book that came out/is coming out about rape and nature, etc.
is it possible that the rapists were reacting to pheromones that the victims released?
could the rapists be very sensitive to pheromones?
i’m sure it would be an easy study. find out if the rape victims were ovulating at the time, or whatnot.
see if the rapists are sensitive to pheromones by doing the whole cotton ball with pheromones near the nose trick.
if there’s a pattern, maybe this is the answer. of course, you’d have to rule out all of the crimes that were out of anger.
no, i haven’t read the book. it could be in there (but from what i’ve heard, the authors didn’t do much in the way of research). i did a quick search on the internet, but found nothing.
and if anyone gets an idea for research on this, credit me.
Rape is not about sex, it is about overpowering someone else. I don’t think there would ever be a study on something like that, because AFAIK, scientists already know that rape isn’t about sex. Sadly, elderly women and children are raped every day. I don’t think they were giving off pheromones or were ovulating. Men and boys are the victims of rape as well…what would that mean? Do men give off ovulation pheromones too? Think about it.
I’m sorry if I’m coming off harsh, and I don’t mean this as a flame, but your thinking is way off on this one. Trying to place some of the blame on the victim of a rape, even if it is unintentional, is a very bad thing to do.
(By unintentional I mean thinking that the victim’s pheromones had something to do with them being chosen as a rape victim.)
Rose
according to this book, which has been the subject of other threads on this board that i don’t care to look up, rape may be partially to blame on a primal instinct in men (from what i gather). meaning, the instinct of spreading one’s seeds takes precidence over monogamy. sure, there’s some instances of monogamy in other species, but it’s not the norm. their book contends that rape is not necessarily about control or violence against women.
i’m not even saying that rapists are ‘normal’. it’s quite possible that they’ve got mental problems. but i don’t care to know about all that.
i know that rape does happen to elderly women, young children, and males. i should have added that to the OP. do a study on females of child bearing age.
but maybe that doesn’t even be there.
suppose a guy lives with women (one, several, many, i don’t know). around ‘that time of month’ he goes ‘nuts’, and goes out and rapes someone. basically,
could pheromones be a contributing cause of rape?
again, i am ruleing out all obvious acts of ‘punish fucking’ or any sort of directed violence against a woman, or women in general.
i don’t want this to turn into a debate. i know rape is bad. i think rapists should be severely punished/put to death.
please don’t respond to this if your reply is something to the effect of “how could you think this?” or “are you dumb?” or anything of the like. i’m looking for, “yes, there’s been a study…” or “maybe, i’ve never thought of it that way…” or something like that.
I’m afraid I have to differ. Rape is about sex. Although there are eldery people and children who get raped, most rape victims are women of childbearing age. To paraphrase the author Piers Anthony, to say that rape is not about sex is to say that eating is not about hunger.
That doesn’t mean that rape victims are to blame, and this pheronomes theory comes dangerously close to that. By all means study this line of inquiry, but the problem with rape is not with what’s wrong with the victim—it’s what’s wrong with the rapist.
As far as the case of eldery women and children being raped, they may be singled out because of their weakness. The rapist may believe that he would have a better chance against weaker targets than normal women. Either that, or the rapists’ own sexual needs may have become perverted–but that doesn’t mean that he isn’t driven by sexual desire.
I’ll have to look up the original source, but the study which suggests that rape is evolutionarily driven studies several million species and found that rape occurs in most of them. That’s a powerful argument, but it would be even stronger if it turned out that chimpanzees were one of those species, since we share over 99% of their DNA. Unfortunately, that is something I do not know…
Surely some rape is not meant as violence but as forced sex, or even unknowing forced sex.
What about “date rape” which is generally a combination of alcohol, horny guy, a girl that doesn’t fight back enough and then sexual penetration? The next morning the guy thinks she gave it up and they had sex. The girl thinks she should have been more forceful in saying “No” and wonders if she gave consent or not. Sometimes she thinks she’s been raped, sometimes she calls the cops. He said - she said. (No, this is not the voice of experience!!!)
I think “rape” has been blown out of proportion by women’s groups/feminists as a means of obtaining power. This is pretty evident when academic women’s studies departments at major univerisities claim 1 in 3 women will be “raped” or sexually assulted in their lifetime, then in the fine print they include everything from actual rape to unwanted groping, verbal insults, workplace harrassment, etc. in coming up with that total. Make the people in power (men) look or feel bad about their behavior, then use that to grab more power for yourself.
BTW, I saw the interview with one of the authors of this book recently on 20/20 or Dateline or CNN or something, if it is the book in question. He was an anthropologist/sociologist professor from a CA university (Stanford maybe) and the reporter kept hammering away at him and the guy was just saying that SOME rape is sexual, not all. He said it didn’t make it right, but it does explain some of it.
Sorry, but I think all the other posts make more sense than this one.
Blue Twylight, why does it have to be so black-and-white? I will agree that your points are valid, if you will agree that there are many borderline cases where other factors come into play. For example, as has been posted by others, just because young girls and elderly women get raped doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s not about sex; it can easily mean that they are easier targets. And I would imagine that most cases of date rape are certainly about the male’s desire for sex, and only rarely is it due to his desire to do violence.
To answer ubermensch’s original post, I have yet to read of any study that proves a link between pheremones and any kind of behavior - let alone behavior as controversial and poorly understood as rape.
[small rant]To say that rape is only/always about sex, only/always about procreating or that it’s only/always about power is to vastly oversimplify the motivation and actions of rapists. People rarely do anything - even the simplest of actions - for just one reason, and the circumstances that lead up to consensual sex, let alone forced sex, are complicated enough to spark a continual dialogue in our society. Rape, in all its forms is a terrible, brutal crime. If we want to prevent it, we need to do a better job of understanding what drives rapists to the act. Making political statements doesn’t do the job. [/small rant]
Rape itself is not about sex, it’s about power, and sex is the tool. Sex is used to humiliate demean and overpower the other person whether they by 2 years old or 98 years old. It’s like anorexia is not about food or weight loss; it’s about having a sense of control when the person’s life “seems out of control”. Date rape, I haven’t read any studies on, but the theory can still hold water. It still boils down to one person forcing their will on another and that’s called power.
Trust me when I say this is something I actually know about.
I think the whole arguement about rape and pheromones would just barely begin to make sense if more men raped dogs and cats and ponies, rabbits, mice, and chimps at the zoo - you know, the animals that really do exude pheromones. If it were tue we’d be able to read about it at the supermarket nearly every day: “John Miller sues Harry Linen over rape of cow. Second time says Miller, cow now longer gives milk.”
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
I think the whole arguement about rape and pheromones would just barely begin to make sense if more men raped dogs and cats and ponies, rabbits, mice, and chimps at the zoo - you know, the animals that really do exude pheromones. If it were tue we’d be able to read about it at the supermarket nearly every day: “John Miller sues Harry Linen over rape of cow. Second time says Miller, cow now longer gives milk.”
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
the book is called “A Natural History of Rape : Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion” the authors are Randy Thornhill and Craig T. Palmer. A professor and instructor respectively.
with this thread, i only want to know if pheromones might be a factor in why men rape.
and from what i read in the above mentioned thread, i’m starting to believe it might be. i have nothing in my educational career to back this up except for my intuition (it makes sense to me) and what i’ve read about the book. the book, granted, does have it’s flaws (i haven’t read it yet, but i will soon), and the authors really didn’t come across as knowledgible in any intervew i saw either in. but that doesn’t mean the book is crap, nor the ideas put forth in it.
no one will end the debate whether rape is a sexual behavior, a need for power, or both. i don’t plan on that happening here. if you’d like to revive the Rape is Natural? thread, feel free. or at least read it. http://cnn.com/HEALTH/9803/11/pheromones/index.html
in http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_306.html , we read “The author of this theory assumes that women in their brief monthly phase of peak fertility give off some pheromonic signal that drives men wild.” could this signal be what the rapists sense (again, from maybe a mom, sister, girlfriend, or other woman whom he lives with, and not necessarily the rape victim)?
and again, in http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_039.html , toward the end, we find a study done 1983 showed that polar bears were attracted to menstrual blood. perhaps rapists are more sensitive to pheromones? i don’t know, that’s why i’m asking you.
I think the whole arguement about rape and pheromones would just barely begin to make sense if more men raped dogs and cats and ponies, rabbits, mice, and chimps at the zoo - you know, the animals that really do exude pheromones. If it were tue we’d be able to read about it at the supermarket nearly every day: “John Miller sues Harry Linen over rape of cow. Second time says Miller, cow now longer gives milk.”
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
Sorry, but I think all the other posts make more sense than this one.
Blue Twylight, why does it have to be so black-and-white? I will agree that your points are valid, if you will agree that there are many borderline cases where other factors come into play. For example, as has been posted by others, just because young girls and elderly women get raped doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s not about sex; it can easily mean that they are easier targets. And I would imagine that most cases of date rape are certainly about the male’s desire for sex, and only rarely is it due to his desire to do violence.**
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I think I wasn’t clear enough in my first post. I acknowledge that there are some cases, especially where drugs and alcohol are involved, where the definition of rape becomes a little fuzzy. In defense of my earlier post, I was responding to the question asked in the OP, which wasn’t about date rape or forced sex between a married couple, but about men not being able to control their sexual desires, to the point of forcing sex on someone, because they smell pheromones. I happen to think that is ridiculous. I’m sure there are many ‘scientifically’ documented cases and/or studies that disagree with me, and maybe even some that do agree with me. I don’t know, and since the person who started this thread doesn’t want to start a debate about it, I’m not going to look. He was only looking for information on the theory of pheromones as a contributing factor in rape, and I may have jumped the gun with my reply. I will admit that my statement “rape is about power, not sex” may have been a little too black and white. What I should have said is that I think rape maybe more about satisfying the urge to overpower someone, with the result being sexual gratification, rather than just the need for sexual gratification alone. Better?
Rose
Personally, I think the pheronomes theory is bunk for one simple reason–the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue. Millions of guys buy this issue each years because they are sexually aroused by the picutres of the models, even though they are not exposed to any of the models’ pheronomes…
ED: i’m not saying that pheromones are the sole factor, and i’m definately not saying it’s the only thing that arouses men. and i don’t think that it’s involved in all rapes.
BLUE TWYLIGHT: it’s not that men can’t control their sexual desires, but maybe the rapists in addition to being not all there mentally, are hyper-sensitive to pheromones, which put them ‘over the edge’ so to speak.
i’m going to be very defensive in this thread. i don’t want to come across as a heartless asswipe.