China executes around 10,000 people every year. Why “around”? Their justice system is a no-justice system.
Where is that European “morality” vis-a-vis the death penalty? French morality is measured in Euros, obviously.
Where is their concern for “peace” when China is involved?
The best proof of French moral turpitude is the Oil-For-Food scandal which is growing by leaps and bounds. The investigations are getting more intense and the connections to the anti-war goverments are crystallizing every day. Even American anti-war personalities might have been connected.
I’ve met honest and decent French people. Why don’t they ever make it into the French government?
Because of course the United States would NEVER cooperate with communist China to gain access to the Chinese market, right? You’d certainly never go to any trouble to open up full trading relations with China, right?
The United States grants most-favored nation status to China. Of course, we do it because democracy can only spread as far as McDonalds’ franchises do. Not because we’re greedy and want to exploit the virtually unlimited potential for financial gain in Chinese markets, or anything.
Jesus fucking Christ, Beagle, do you have any idea of the staggering amount of hypocrisy it requires for an American to criticize any other nation on the planet for cozying up to communist China? Please, for the love of the nation, shut the fuck up.
Err… I think he was criticizing France. See, the title says France, and of course, he references France’s actions in both Iraq and in regards to China.
As to pot/kettle/black, be careful about using that argument on a national scale, because there are no countries without dirt under their fingernails.
I don’t really have an opinion on France’s actions, except that they are looking out for their own interest, and of course, trying to open more markets with China is a part of that. I doubt they’ll get that far, but then again, it should keep their own, and the Chineese’, intel agencies quite busy spying on each others businessmen.
There is a difference between free trade relations and actively supporting China’s desire to overthrow a small democracy and turn it back into a dictatorship, and participating in manoevers designed intimidate said small democracy.
But essentially, the rest of you are right. This is realpolitik - France looking out for France’s interests. France has decided that its future lay in being a ‘balance’ to U.S. power. It is trying to move Europe into its court so that a large counterbalance to America can be developed. Moving closer to China makes sense from this standpoint, as does the opposition to the war in Iraq.
Are we really sure this is about money and not security? Maybe this is about a French Military who is scared that the U.S. will no longer come to it’s aid, and is now seeking a military relationship with China.
I suspect this because I’ve heard rumors Greenpeace is building another Rainbow Warrior. The French Navy has to be terrified.
The phrase is “black gold” not “black and gold.” And the vote-buying it refers to is primarily the tactic of the KMT, which is the party China would prefer to have in power. Chen Shui-Bian is in power despite it, not because of it, and the KMT might well collapse completely if they lose this election, which would be the culmination of an amazing story of peaceful transformation to complete self-rule.
So you can take your scare quotes off democracy, because that is exactly what China is fighting against.
**The issue here has nothing to do with trade. ** Free trade is good for everyone, including the Chinese people looking for reform. But there is a big fucking difference between trading with the Chinese and actively aiding them in trying to intimidate voters before an election.
The phrase is “black gold” in Chinese, but it translates into “black and gold,” since “black” is not a noun in English.
“Black and gold” does not simply mean vote-buying, and these certainly are not limited to the KMT. Chen Shui-Bian is in power not because of his stance against “black and gold,” but simply because Lee Tung-Fai put him there. So much for your knowledge of Taiwanese politics.
Your logic doesn’t follow.
The quotes stay on, because the way Chen Shui-Bian became president was decidedly undemocratic.
So you are saying that Chen Shui-Bian’s speeches and ads are not scare tactics? :rolleyes:
Note the word “primarily.” No, the DPP isn’t spotless, but to suggest that ‘they all do it’ as if that settled it is disingenous to the point of falsehood.
Didn’t say he was.
Ah, so the whole election was a farce. I suppose you have a cite for Lee Tung-Hui anointing Chen as his successor? A speech where he endorsed Chen? People saying they voted for Chen solely because of Lee?
It absolutely does. You think Black Gold is an impediment to Taiwanese democracy; I agree. If the KMT breaks up, and its assets split, which is very possible if they lose this election it would be a great aid in taking the some of the corruption out of Taiwanese politics. It would also mean that the remaining parties on the political scene would be dominated by actual Taiwanese, rather than old men born on the mainland. Call me crazy, but I also think national referendums just might be democracy.
I know this is the Pit and all, but have you got anything to back that up other than your assertion? Any NGOs that deny Chen won fairly? Any foreign governments saying so?
Straw man. Rhetorical “scare tactics” are one thing; Chen engages in them like all politicians do in every country. But there is a big difference between that and lobbing missiles into the straits or mobilizing troops to threaten imminent military action as China does, and as France is aiding in.
I’ve been reading this forum for about four years, but I don’t have the memory capacity that some other SDMB members have.
Just for fun, anyone recall Beagle’s attitudes on France before they told GWB to go fuck himself?
I’ve been known to be wrong, but I’ll bet this monkey’s attitudes toward France (Besides typical American jokes about French Army Surplus Weapns that weren’t meant seriously) were based on GWB and Iraq.
