SDMB H.H.M. Keeper League Rules Ballot.

In My Humble Opinion
1

OK, I had to make some assumptions here. One is that a TD’s base value is 6 points; that seems to be the preference of most, the real question is one of ratios (not absolute values), and it’s easier to decide on the ratios if we remove one of the variables.

Another assumption is that both interceptions and fumbles lost will carry the same penalty (even though they don’t this year). On the Yahoo message board, everyone seems to assume that will be the case, and it makes sense anyway. One less issue.

These are by no means the only issues up for debate, of course. Anything else that comes up is fair game. The Commish (T. Rex), by virtue of being the Commish, can add questions or options to the ballot by fiat, and is the final arbiter of the whole process. I’m sure there are issues and/or options that I’ve neglected to include which should be on the ballot. I’ll post an updated (final) ballot just before the polls open.

There’s no rush at all, so we should take our time. Hence, let’s allow for a week of discussion before any votes can be cast, then another week during which the polls are open (and during which discussion can continue, of course).

POLLS OPEN THURSDAY, 12/16 AT 12:01 AM
POLLS CLOSE THURSDAY, 12/23 AT 11:59 PM
#1: Expansion and Divisions
A. Keep current setup (14 teams, no divisions)
B. Expand to 16 teams, split into 4 divisions
#2: Use Individual Defensive Players?
A. No, keep current system (1 Team Defense slot)
B. Yes, individual defensive players

If yes, referendum on specific slots to follow.
#3: Points for Yardage
A. Keep current system (40/20/20 [Pass, rush, rec. Yds./Pt.])
B. 30/10/10
C. 25/10/10
D. 40/20/10

Preference Voting: rank in order of preference, first choice=4 votes, second = 3 votes, etc.
#4: Passing TD Value
A. 6 Points (current)
B. 4 Points
#5: Roster Positions
A. QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, RB/WR, TE, DEF (current)
B. QB, RB, WR, WR, RB/WR, TE, DEF
#6: Bench Spots
A. 7 (current)
B. 6
C. 5

Preference Voting

#7: Fractional Points?
A. Yes (current)
B. No
#8: Points for Receptions?
A. No (current)
B. Yes, 0.5 per reception
#9: Return Yardage
A. No (current)
B. Yes, equal to receiving yards
C. Yes, equal to passing yards
D. Yes, 50 yards per point.

Preference Voting
#10: Turnover Penalties
A. -6 (opposite of TD)
B. -3
C. -2
#11: Fumbles or just Fumbles Lost
A. Only count lost fumbles
B. Half penalty for fumble, full penalty if fumble is lost.
#12: Allow Trades during Off-Season
A. Yes
B. No

If Yes, commisioner to set deadlines.
#13: Allow Trading of Draft Picks
A. Yes
B. No
#14: Live draft on Yahoo?
A. Yes (like last year)
B. No, off-site draft
#15: Waivers/Free Agents
A. Keep current system
B. Disallow FA pickups until Tuesday; commish reviews claims made before then and awards player to team with lowest record
C. Free Agent Bidding

Preference Voting
If C, referendum on specifics to follow

2

Expansion and Divisons
I favor keeping the league as it is. We’re already very thin at 14 teams. Having Divisions would be interesting, but also unfair when one division is inevitably very strong or very weak. Also, the expansion teams would have to start without keepers.

Individual Defensive Players
No. Adding three or more (relatively) unimportant rounds to the draft would make it longer, less fun, and more complicated.

Yardage
I like 30/10/10, as it corresponds with the traditional 300/100/100 benchmarks. In any event, I want to de-emphasize TDs to a degree.

I’m strongly opposed to making receiving and rushing yards worth different amounts. Receiving yards are not that much harder to come by than rushing yards, and I’m sure most of us are used to rushing and receiving yards being equal when figuring out the relative values of RBs and WRs.

Rosters/Benches
I like the setup just as it is. Since keepers incur a 2 round penalty, many of them will come from the very late rounds and won’t be able to contribute much the year they’re drafted. Having a deep bench gives us more freedom to play with the keeper aspect of the Keeper League.

Strongly in favor of fractional points – it’s ugly, but honest.

I don’t like points for receptions – the reward for catching a pass is the yards gained. Points for receptions is like giving points to RBs for carries.

I think a fumble should count against a player (at least some) whether his team recovered or not – he dropped the ball, and that’s a no-no.

It would be a little complicated, but I think we’d be able to handle off-season and draft pick trading. I doubt there would be that many to keep track of, and if two owners want to do something and make a public record of it, they should be allowed to.

How would a Live Draft on Yahoo work w/ regard to keepers? Wouldn’t everyone have to make it, and isn’t that unlikely? I really don’t know. I don’t think a draft on the SDMB or some other site would be the worst thing in the world (though I do like the live draft).

Free Agents/Waivers
Jesus, I don’t know. I guess I prefer an open bidding system. This would be much simpler than the secret auction, and would give us a means to allow for FA keepers.

Failing that, option B is also acceptable. I don’t like the current system at all.

3

As I’ve said before, I’m all about touchdowns – regardless of how achieved – should be worth six. I also advocate all points being worth exactly what they are worth in the game. So while I love the 4 and 5 point field goals, and could get on board with boosting the point value of a safety, I vote for all points mirror the NFL.

Some issues with the OP are that the yardage choices don’t allow for manipulating the ratio between yards and TDs very much. My thinking along these lines never involve concrete numbers; only relationships. My current thinking is as follows:

RB yards = WR yards = TE yards (Hereafter referred to as SP [skill position])
QB yards = SP * 3 (meaning you need thrice the QB yards to equal the SP yards)
KR yards = QB yards (no real reason; just seems poetic)
300/100/100 games = 2.5 touchdowns (This is the real ratio to determine.)

Since I currently (subject to change) recommend 2.5 as my “golden ratio”, plugging in the numbers, I get QB/RB/WR yards as being 20/7/7. With a 20/7/7 ratio, a 300 yard passing day (sans TD) is worth 15, a 100 yard rushing or receiving day (sans TD) is worth 14.29, and Bettis only gets 18 and change for his 3 TD/1 yard game. Keeps it realisticly competitive in my mind. On a side note, is it possible to use fractional yardage? Ideally my 2.5 golden ratio would produce the more exact numbers of 20/6.67/6.67. Is that possible? If not, I could more easily be convinced to budge on the TD = 6 points issue by the group.

I love the thought of a fractional point for a reception. Love love love the idea. Unfortunately, I must reluctantly agree with the legitimate objections raised on the yahoo board. Great idea, that one, but just not feasible.

Tackles for a loss? Should be worth something for the D. It already penalizes the O, though admittedly not by much.

I’d like enough bench positions to have a complete set of backups, and I’d like to mirror the starting lineups like a real NFL team. That means removing a starting RB slot, and expanding the bench to 8. I’m guessing you all threw up in your mouths a little reading that suggestion, so I’m not expecting it to pass. Just my two cents.

I enjoyed the live draft once I got in, but with keepers and potential draft pick trades, I’d be just as happy with an SDMB draft.

I am strongly for trading draft picks in the offseason. Not that I need to, or even want to, but what’s the point of trading except with draft picks? How many straight up player trades could we really even have, considering we can only trade our keepers in the offseason? I might not even keep anybody.

4

Regarding turnovers, I like the following ratios:

Int = TD / 2
Fumble = 1
Fumble + Fumble Lost = Int

Thus, not rocket science here, fumbles are 1, fumbles lost are 2, and picks are 3.

Defense needs to be normalized better. What’s a good day at a skill position, touchdown-wise? Between 1 and 2 seems about right. So assume, using the 2.5 golden ration, the “good day” for a skill position would be 100 yards and one and a half TDs. That’s, uh, 24 points. So a “good day” for a defense should also be 24 points.

I’m not nearly as familiar with “good days” on defense as I am offense. 2 sacks seems a bit pedestrian, so maybe 3 sacks. 2 turnovers is all you need to qualify, in my mind, as a good day. One may be dumb luck, but 2 is the real deal. They say holding your opponent to 17 or less, (or is it under 17?) is all you need to do to win, so…

Sacks: 2 points (can’t be worth as much as a turnover) * 2 = 4
Turnovers: 2 * 3 = 6

Ugh, that leaves 14 points for a 17 and under defensive day. Are there any other stats the defense uses? I suppose we could amp up turnovers to 4 so we could make sacks 3, meaning a 17 point day would only need to be 10 points. But that doesn’t look appealing. Can we give a single point to pass deflections? Say 4 deflections is a good game, that helps a lot.

Speaking of deflections, I am strongly in favor of a dropped pass being worth -1. Hell, for that matter, a first down should be worth 1 point as well, with 3rd down conversions being worth 1.5. Already realizing this would probably skew things with awarding way too many points, I refine my suggestion as follows:

3rd down conversion: 1 point, awarded only to the skill position (Not the QB unless it’s a scramble.)
Drop: -1 point (can yahoo do this?)

That’s all I got for now. Yeah right, just wait 5 minutes.

5

Not even 5 minutes. First off, I shoulda previewed that last post. Oh well.

I’m already rethinking my preferred golden ratio. I’m thinking a good day should be worth over 3 TDs; 20 points to be precise. That makes it 15/5/5. That would make a good day roughly 29.

With the three sacks which I promptly forgot, plus the two turnovers giving a base defensive good day a value of 12, we need another 17 points for the D somehow.

Come to think of it, why are points allowed used at all? Kinda sucks for the defense who pitches a shutout when the QB throws some pick-sixes. Can we change it to yards allowed instead of points?

6

Yahoo doesn’t give you that option, nor does it give us the option of points for drops or 3rd down conversions.

7

Oops, didn’t see who was logged in. “Little Cloud” is not a big football fan, believe it or not.

8

#1: Expansion and Divisions
A. Keep current setup (14 teams, no divisions)
#2: Use Individual Defensive Players?
A. No, keep current system (1 Team Defense slot)
#3: Points for Yardage
C. 25/10/10
B. 30/10/10
A. Keep current system (40/20/20 [Pass, rush, rec. Yds./Pt.])
D. 40/20/10
#4: Passing TD Value

B. 4 Points

#5: Roster Positions
A. QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, RB/WR, TE, DEF (current)
#6: Bench Spots
A. 7 (current)
Preference Voting

#7: Fractional Points?
A. Yes (current)
#8: Points for Receptions?
A. No (current)
#9: Return Yardage
A. No (current)

#10: Turnover Penalties

C. -2
#11: Fumbles or just Fumbles Lost
A. Only count lost fumbles
#12: Allow Trades during Off-Season
A. Yes
#13: Allow Trading of Draft Picks
A. Yes
#14: Live draft on Yahoo?

Count me in for Yahoo live, but this is really relying on everyone else’s schedule and is one of the few things that probably shouldn’t be determined anytime soon.
#15: Waivers/Free Agents

C. Free Agent Bidding (Public bidding)

#16: Tarring and feathering of Ricky Williams?

A. Yes

9

Can we add to the ballot a public proclamation that Chitwood didn’t really have that poor of a draft, that Travis Henry was actually a good pick at the time, and that nobody could have known that Duce Staley and Jimmy Smith would combine for 1800 yards, but only five touchdowns? No?

I’m too tired to vote right now, but my concern is that screwing with the parameters of the league could possibly cock up the keeper situation. Eh, maybe not, I can’t really think of a very good example of how that would happen, but I’m always sort of leery of rule changes in the middle of something. I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t affect me either way, as I’ve managed to shrewdly parlay my assets into both a shitty crop of keepers and a shitty draft slot.

Also, I was lying when I said I wasn’t voting.
**
#1: Expansion and Divisions
A. Keep current setup (14 teams, no divisions)
**
What good are divisions in fantasy, really?

#2: Use Individual Defensive Players?
B. Yes, individual defensive players

I’ve done IDP for a few years now, and I think it’s a blast. Team defenses end up rewarding you in bizarre ways, anyway, it seems to me. If you rack up 800 yards of offense and 35 points, but I get five sacks and two picks, that’s better than a shutout with no turnovers (I made those numbers up, so if I’m wrong it’s your fault for looking it up). I don’t expect this measure to have much support, but I like it.

#3: Points for Yardage
A. Keep current system (40/20/20 [Pass, rush, rec. Yds./Pt.]), then B, C, D.

Of the choices given I’d rather stay the same. Doubling the rush/rec. yards (or cutting in half, depending how you look at it, I guess) seems just a bit too drastic. 30/15/15 maybe, since we’ve got fractionals anyway? I don’t really have any kind of grasp on how much would change if we went to 30/10/10, though.
**
#4: Passing TD Value
A. 6 Points (current)
**
Since the yardage points have already been beefed up, hypothetically, I say keep the TD the same. Quarterback is a pretty damn important position, after all.

#5: Roster Positions
A. QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, RB/WR, TE, DEF (current)

I like our setup. We’re right on the cusp of inviability some weeks, with backup fullbacks getting starts due to injuries on the shallower teams. Just like the NFL.

#6: Bench Spots
B. 6
A.
C.
**
I have guys on my bench who’re just there because I can’t find a better option, and with benches this deep I don’t feel any pressure to tighten up. Cut it back by one and maybe the weaker teams (that is, me) can start somebody who would otherwise languish on a good team’s bench.
**
#7: Fractional Points?
A. Yes (current)

Hell yeah. I’d rather score 83.15131874 points and win than lose because all my players happened to rack up big remainders.

#8: Points for Receptions?
A. No (current)

Fractional points obviate the need for this, I should think.

**#9: Return Yardage

D. Yes, 50 yards per point.
A.
C.
B.**

I don’t really care, but what the hell, another variable to consider that actually mirrors a real team’s evaluation of a player. It shouldn’t matter as much as a back’s ability to be a back, or a receiver’s ability to, you know, receive. Shouldn’t even be close, I don’t think.

**
#10: Turnover Penalties
C. -2
**
**#11: Fumbles or just Fumbles Lost
B. Half penalty for fumble, full penalty if fumble is lost.
**

#12: Allow Trades during Off-Season
A. Yes
**#13: Allow Trading of Draft Picks
A. Yes
**
Only one draft should be in play at a time, though.

#14: Live draft on Yahoo?
A. Yes (like last year)
B. No, off-site draft

I don’t even understand how a Yahoo draft is possible. Is it? I didn’t think you could alter the draft pool… what would we do, just all agree that we weren’t taking other teams’ keepers? One guy’s computer lags and the whole draft gets fucked up.
**#15: Waivers/Free Agents

B. Disallow FA pickups until Tuesday; commish reviews claims made before then and awards player to team with lowest record**

Bidding scares me, for I am a simple man.

10

#1: Expansion and Divisions
A. Keep current setup (14 teams, no divisions)
#2: Use Individual Defensive Players?
A. No, keep current system (1 Team Defense slot)
#3: Points for Yardage
C, B, A, D

(What is the possible rationale for different rushing/receiving yardage?)

#4: Passing TD Value
A. 6 Points (current)
#5: Roster Positions
B. QB, RB, WR, WR, RB/WR, TE, DEF
#6: Bench Spots
B. 6

Preference Voting

#7: Fractional Points?
A. Yes (current)
#8: Points for Receptions?
B. Yes, 0.5 per reception
#9: Return Yardage
C. Yes, equal to passing yards

Preference Voting
#10: Turnover Penalties
B. -3
#11: Fumbles or just Fumbles Lost
A. Only count lost fumbles
#12: Allow Trades during Off-Season
A. Yes
#13: Allow Trading of Draft Picks
A. Yes
#14: Live draft on Yahoo?
B. No, off-site draft
#15: Waivers/Free Agents
B. Disallow FA pickups until Tuesday; commish reviews claims made before then and awards player to team with lowest record
C. Free Agent Bidding

I disagree with the lowest record thing - it should be a waiver number system similar to what is currently working on Yahoo. I rank these two: C then B.

11

Q’s #1-15:

Status quo.

(well, except maybe on #9, don’t award return yards but award return TDs)

Let’s not make this too complicated. It’s a game.

12

I agree with this. Big-time. (It’s the only thing that makes me think twice about the FA bidding system - another layer of complexity.)

I’ll vote later, but I wanted to point out that certain categories suggested by Ellis Dee (drops, tackles for loss, etc) aren’t available on Yahoo. Unless a viable alternative to Yahoo is suggested, we are stuck using their available categories. (Check the Yahoo rules or league settings page to see rules categories.)

13

I question this whole process.

No seriously; voting for all these things at once is a bad idea, simply because so many of the questions are interdependant.

Frex, I’d like to know how many teams we’re going to have before we determine the number of roster slots. If we’re staying at 14, I’d like to drop maybe one roster slot. If we’re expanding to 16, I’d say drop 2 or 3.

I’d also like to know how many defensive players it’d be before we decide that. If it’s six or more, that sounds interesting. If it’s less, not so much.

May I suggest this: see which issues have a very solid consensus (say 10 votes). Then, having established them, move on to handle the rest?
Having said that:

#1: Expansion and Divisions
B. Expand to 16 teams, split into 4 divisions

#2: Use Individual Defensive Players?
Undecided

#3: Points for Yardage
C. 25/10/10

#4: Passing TD Value
B. 4 Points

#5: Roster Positions
B. QB, RB, WR, WR, RB/WR, TE, DEF

#6: Bench Spots
B. 6

#7: Fractional Points?
B. No

#8: Points for Receptions?
A. No (current)

#9: Return Yardage
C. Yes, equal to passing yards
#10: Turnover Penalties
Undecided

#11: Fumbles or just Fumbles Lost
B. Half penalty for fumble, full penalty if fumble is lost.

#12: Allow Trades during Off-Season
No.

#13: Allow Trading of Draft Picks
B. No

#14: Live draft on Yahoo?
Don’t care.

#15: Waivers/Free Agents
B. Disallow FA pickups until Tuesday; commish reviews claims made before then and awards player to team with lowest record

14

My pearls of wisdom:

I agree with furt that too many of these questions are inter-dependant. I’d be all for expansion to 16 - but only if we cut a starting spot or a bench spot or both.

So, I’m going to say keep everything as it is, with just two comments.

1 - passing TDs should be 4, not 6.

2 - I’m scared of the online Yahoo draft with keepers - as others have pointed out, it seems to me to be too likely to get screwed up, we’d end up having to re-run it. This is just a hunch on my part - I’ve certainly never tried it.
I’d recommend considering a by e-mail draft. I’ve been in one, in zev steinhardt’s fantasy baseball league - Weirddave has been in that league longer than me.
Basically, by a deadline, each owner gets a list of picks in to the commish (or whoever is running the draft). The first person to pick in each round sends one choice, the second lists two preferences, and so on to the last person in each round who sends in 14. The commish then puts it all together and publishes who everyone got. If there’s enough lead time, and a strict enough schedule, and a provision for what happens if an owner misses a deadline (assumedly pick the highest ranked available player based on an agreed upon preranking system, like Yahoo’s), you can get the draft done in a month easy.
Of course, you need an absolutely trustworthy commish/draft administrator to make it work. I’d volunteer, but I’m not sure I trust myself.

15

[ol]
[li]14 teams , no divisions[/li][li]1 Team Defense (but I would review the scoring options)[/li][li]30/10/10[/li][li]4 points for a passing TD[/li][li]Starting slots as current[/li][li]7 bench spots (otherwise, 2 year keepers become an endangered breed)[/li][li]Yes fractional points. I’m very adamant on this one.[/li][li]No points for receptions. It is an abomination before the football gods.[/li][li]Return yardage == passing yardage[/li][li]Turnover == -3[/li][li]fumble == (-1). Lost == (-2)[/li][li]Yes, off-season trades[/li][li]Yes, trade draft picks. All trades finalized when keepers chosen. All players notified and bound to not screw up the draft. Really, how hard is it to put 20 players on an “ignore” list?[/li][li]Live Draft. I say again . . . LIVE DRAFT!! Not that I’m excessively opinionated or anything, but a great pleasure of drafting (for me) is to adjust strategy to position runs. This cannot be done with the “email draft” or any other system I know that wouldn’t take 4 weeks to complete.[/li][li]Free agent bidding.[/li][/ol]

16

Allow me to steal a few of these from Spiritus Mundi and save myself the trouble of typing.

[ul]
[li]14 teams, no divisions[/li][li]1 Team Defense (but I would review the scoring options)[/li][li]30/10/10[/li][li]Pass TD = don’t care[/li][li]Starting slots as current[/li][li]7 bench spots (current)[/li][li]Yes fractional points. [/li][li]No points for receptions. [/li][li]Return yardage = don’t care[/li][li]Turnover == -3 (but only if yardage points are increased!)[/li][li]fumble == (-1). Lost == (-2)[/li][li]Off-season trades: No.[/li][li]trade draft picks: No.[/li][li]Live Draft.[/li][li]Free agents- I’m going to reverse my position here. Lock out teams from Sunday-Tuesday, then process FA claims on the basis of waiver priority, not worst record. Using ‘worst record’ is a terrible idea because it is unfair. Any player claims that do not conflict with someone else (i.e., you are the only coach attempting to pick someone up) should be processed without affecting waivers. For any claims that conflict, use waiver priority to resolve it, and the winning claimant has his priority reset to the bottom of the list.[/ul][/li]
I’m actually OK with using an FA bidding system, if someone is willing to run it. The problem is it will take a lot of time and effort, and I can see it becoming a mess.

17

Pretty simple, really. But how easy is it to get the computer to pick up Larry Johnson in the 7th Round if I’m not there?

18

I’m wavering on the TD = 6 points thing. Consider me happy with either 6 or 4 point touchdowns. With that caveat in mind, consider me in complete agreement with all of Mundi’s rule suggestions.

19

Hi guys!

I just thought I’d throw out my answers, because I’m sure all of you were waiting to find out what I believe.

I believe we should keep the current setup.
I believe 16 teams is just too many.
I believe we should not have individual defensive players.
I believe that’s just too complicated.
I believe in Jack Ruby acted alone.
I believe we should increase the value of yards.
I believe in option C, then B, then D.
I believe in 6 points for a passing touchdown.
I believe quarterback is the most important position in football for a reason.
I believe in 2 starting running backs.
I believe I don’t have 2 starting runningbacks.
I believe 7 bench spots are necessary to make keepers more important.
I believe there should be a constitutional amendment banning steroids in baseball, Bill Romanowski, and return yards.
I believe in fractional points.
I believe football is a game of inches.
I believe in no points per reception.
I believe return yards are idiotic.
I believe if people want return yards, it should be done by team and not individual player.
I believe even that is idiotic.
I believe in -3 for turnovers.
I believe it should only be for fumbles lost.
I believe trades should be allowed only when we are assured the owners will be back next year.
I believe we should be allowed to trade draft picks.
I believe in pornography.
I believe in a live draft, free agents by priority rather than first come, and even free agent bidding.
I believe in long slow wet beers that last three days.

Unfortunately I don’t look anything like Kevin Costner.

20

Is it too late to change my mind? Because thinking it over today, I agree that points for return yards suck. Also, I would feel cheated and victimized if I lost a game because of return yards, and I’d feel dirty if I beat someone the same way.