First, the usual disclaimers:
I tried ‘Search’, and wasn’t able to find this topic.
And wasn’t sure if it should go here, or in another forum.
I have a main breaker that needs to be replaced.
It is in a Westinghouse box, in a 1992 house.
The electrician I called troubleshooted the problem (the main breaker) and immediately wanted to replace the whole box of breakers, quoting me $1800.00.
I balked, and asked if wouldn’t just replacing the main breaker work, as that is the problem? He said it probably would, but it would be difficult to find a replacement, and besides, the cost of the troubleshooting call can be applied towards the box replacement.
I said I would like to try to replace that breaker, as funds are limited.
He said he would try.
Two days later, he calls, and says (surprise!) the breaker can’t be found, but he will go down to 1500 on the job.
I say to myself, Screw it, I’ll get it myself. So say my goodbye, and begin a search . Sadly, my ignorance of electrical matters is almost complete.
There is no manufacturer’s name on the breaker, but numbers and fancy words like 2 Pole, and Amps and Torque. I contacted one company who asked me to email them photos of the breaker, but they received them at 4:55 pm on Friday, and won’t look at it until Monday.
In case this is going to be a hard-to-find breaker, can anyone suggest a site that specializes in this?
I do have electricity, but only 120v, so no oven/stove, no heating, and the hot water tank takes all day to heat enough water for one shower, which the missus claims :/
you almost certainly have 220V but you might not have any 220V circuits.
finding some brands of breakers is hard. the companies have gone out of business and replacement parts are not available or worth 50 times their weight in gold. many of the electrical supply companies for breakers that went out of business did so because there stuff performed poorly, the lifetime of a quality main breaker is well beyond 17 years.
i would have to hunt for my names of vendors for old parts. maybe later.
IAMAE, but I have replaced a breaker a few times. If there is a Home Depot or Lowes nearby, you might go there, and look through their breakers to see if one is similar.
You say the “main breaker” but later mention only the 220 V circuit is not working. The main is usually a large, plug-in thingie with a handle above all the other breakers. That can’t be what is off, as then you would not have any electricity at all. If you mean the little breakers that control the 220 V circuits, there should be separate ones (usually a double switch, marked 50 Amp) for the water heater, the stove, and the heat system. Can you take a picture of the whole box and post it here?
Depending upon the total amperage of your electrical entrance, you could replace the whole thing, but the price that guy quoted is way, way ridiculous. You might call a couple more electricians and see what they would quote for a replacement.
However, if everything else has been working OK, and you don’t need any new circuits, can’t see why a new entrance would be necessary for a house that is not that old.An electrician should be able to fix that problem for much less…try somebody else.
BTW, have you tried turning the breaker on and off a couple of times to see if that would fix that circuit?
The main breaker disconnects the two hot lines simultaneously. From the OP’s description, one side works OK, but the other doesn’t. So he has 240 coming into the house, but past that breaker, only one of the two 120 V legs is powered. The hot water heater is now running at half power, but it’s just resistive, so he’s not hurting it, just doesn’t have full power.
Presumably, he only has half his 120 V circuits working. Intolt, is this the case?
You can see the damage to the main (kind of melted like, caused by arcing according to the electrician). So it is only ‘half’ working, allowing half of the juice to the other breakers. The rest of the breakers appear fine. I am comfortable with, if the main can be replaced, all would be good.
The guy I called works for a large company, so he is certified, but I got the feeling of inexperience. I suggested googling for the part, and he looked at me blankly, then said he would have to call around for the part, and he had never had to do that before. He is in his mid-twenties.
If I can find a replacement, I would have another electrician install it, as the original guy, I’m afraid, would want to fight me over it, whether for a larger paycheck, or a defense of his expertise, or something else along those lines.
If it’s in a Westinghouse box, it is most likely a Westinghouse breaker.
Ok, a few things. It is unusual for a 2 pole breaker to fail only on one leg. If you have a meter, set it to AC Volts and check the two incoming lives - each one to neutral/ground. I have a hunch that your incoming service may be iffy.
You should get 120V to ground from each of the live wires - REMEMBER do this on the ‘live’ side of the breaker not on the side feeding the rest of the panel.
Also check that the neutral is securely screwed down to the neutral bar.
If your service is normal, then the breaker is bad.
I would snap a photo of it and go down to my local Lowes/HD to see if they have something that would work.
You have a bigger issue however with the actual breaker swap. How do you intend to isolate the power to the breaker? Usually, the utility does this at the meter and usually a permit is required. How are you going to do that?
Don’t work on it live. If you don’t kill yourself, you could create a lot of sparks and molten metal very easily, you could damage your incoming conductors which you would then be liable for. You could blow the cut out at the transformer which you would be liable for.
I wouldn’t do it and I have been around electricity for 25 years.
Check the incoming service first. Something doesn’t sound right. if it is good, call another electrician.
A box costs a couple hundred bucks. I don’t know what the power company charges to disconnect but I would think 4 hrs of labor at the most to pull the wires and reattach them. Assuming you buy a box that matches your other breakers this is mostly labor. Maybe some licensed electricians can explain the estimate involved.
I agree. Don’t even think about it. I’ve worked with live wires before but only only if they are very small and very isolated (say 22 gauge). What goes into your box is heavy enough to arc great distances and unless you’ve seen what high amp arcing current can do you wouldn’t believe it. I’ve seen screw drivers blown across the room with their tips welded off from a wall receptacle.
To identify your main breaker and search for it yourself, just open the door to where the breaker handles are - you shouldn’t need to disassemble anything or expose any wires. There should be a label in there, probably on the back of the door, which should give the model of the load center. for example, mine says “QOC40US” (Square D QO series 40-position). This should be sufficient for an electrical supply house (not your local home mega-center) to look up the appropriate part number. They might not be willing to sell one to you (due to the hazards involved in swapping it out), but they should at least be able to tell you the part number and estimated price.
Depending on where in the country you are, $1800 for a new load center and installation may not be that unreasonable. Sure, the QO40M200F load center is around $200 at the home mega-centers (list price is $1121, electrical supply house is $655, which gives you an idea of the markups in this business), but in addition to the box, there’s all new branch breakers, extending any existing wiring that won’t reach into the new box, getting the electric utility involved to pull the meter, permits & inspections, and so forth.
Additionally, replacement main breakers are quite expensive - the QOM2200VH main breaker that comes included with the $200 panel I mentioned has a list price of $468 and is $234 at the electrical supply house. This is for a product that’s in current production and quite common. As stuff goes out of production, prices go up.
While I might be tempted to pick up a “refurbished” branch circuit breaker without test reports if it saved me money, I’d want to see a test report for a main breaker. For example, PEARL (except for the sections that require the breaker to be disassembled, as most household ones are of the “riveted frame molded case” type). This is likely going to price any household breaker above the cost of a new load center.
I wouldn’t suggest that the homeowner perform these tasks unless they’re very familiar with high current and comfortable working around it.
If they suspect that the problem is upstream of the main breaker, then it’s either in the meter box, weather head, or at the pole. All of that is the domain of the electric utility - they should be able to get the utility to come out and verify proper voltage and tight connections.
A loose connection upstream from the main breaker is likely to be generating some serious heat, unless it is completely open.
I don’t believe the original poster was saying they wanted to work on it themself, just that they wanted to know what they needed and how much it cost as they seemed to think the original electrician was dismissive of the idea of replacing just the main breaker.
One other thing to note - the original poster stated “You can see the damage to the main (kind of melted like, caused by arcing according to the electrician).” If this damage is where the main attaches to the panel bus bars, the bus bar itself may be damaged. An evaluation of this might not be possible until the main breaker is removed from the panel. At that point, if the electrician has already purchased a new main breaker but the panel isn’t salvageable, they’ve got a breaker they’ll have to try to return (likely a special-order part). Plus, at that point everybody will be pretty committed to replacing the panel, so unless the electrician has one on his truck, this will be a trip back to the shop / supply house for him, while the homeowner has their power off and the freezer thawing. That might be part of why the electrician wasn’t too excited about replacing only the main breaker.
1800 for replacing the whole box is reasonable. Not being able to find the breaker is unreasonable. It should be easily available even if he couldn’t find a new main you could get a regular 200amp breaker and feed the panel through that.
Isolating the panel is easy you pull the meter. Usually takes a pair of wire cutters to break the seal. Some power companies are more sensitive then others about doing so.
Listen, I’m a licensed electrician and the Op says “Sadly, my ignorance of electrical matters is almost complete.”
And…we’re talking about a main breaker. Folks, this one is not a DIY—especially for someone with zero electrical knowledge.
Intolt, I hate to say it, but I think you need to call another electrician. $1800 may not be unreasonable. (it isn’t here) And I agree that you should be able to find a main breaker.
I’m not convinced you even have a bad main breaker. I’ve found fuses in line with the service entrance cable, and even one leg of the incoming 220V loose from wind.
Read this carefully: At the main breaker you are working—on the incoming side—with live unfused conductors. The only safe way to work with them is to pull your meter from the meter socket.
If you’ve never done anything like this, it is my opinion that you shouldn’t be doing it.
Especially since we’re not even sure that the main breaker is the problem.
I wouldn’t work on this at all. I can change wall outlets, light switches no problem, but something with the breaker box itself, I wouldn’t.
I’m pretty sure the problem is the main breaker, because of the visible damage of it.
Or (and I’m just summarizing what I’ve read here on the replies), could something be out of whack with the line before it enters the breaker box? Something that could damage the main breaker?
On the breakers label, it says type CQ, and on the label inside the door it has Type
CQ200CT Main Circuit Breaker. Neither of which is found on the 2 websites search.
Do you know whether it’s a load center or panelboard? If it’s a panelboard, and even if it’s not, just call the Eaton Sumter SC plant (used to be Westinghouse) and ask to speak to a product engineer. I guarantee that they’ll solve your problem.
True. OSHA has gotten really strict about arc-flash and personal protective equipment in the past handful of years. Gloves, goggles and/or face shield, Nomex clothing, and so on…
QO breakers in a house? A bit unusual, but I’m sure it’s a first-class installation if someone spec’d commercial/light industrial grade QO instead of Homeline or some other generic residential line.
As for the OP, my advice matches all the rest - get some more estimates for a new panel. I’d be asking for a Square D Homeline panel and for the electrician to handle pulling a permit, arranging for the utility to pull the meter and all needed inspections.