Odd electrical breaker problem, multiple sections of house on multiple breakers

Factual Questions
1

Quick background, I’ve owned my house for 18 years, it was built in 1971. I recently had some lights added to my basement and also had some new breakers added to rewire the basement outlets, first floor lights, and the basement bathroom which were all on one breaker.

A few days ago I was going to replace an older light fixture. I had the light switch off but I still tested to make sure there was no power going to the light. There was power going to the fixture so I had someone else turn off the breaker for me. He didn’t know which one so he started turning them off until he got to it. The problem is he turned off the breaker for the heater, which also turned off that light.

The problem is that there is another breaker that also turns off that light. So basically I can turn off either breaker and not get any power to the light. When I went to check a couple of days later with another friend around I found out the breaker for the heater also will turn off the basement outlets and the upstairs lights. For all I know it might turn off some other things but I didn’t go looking yet.

The heater has three breakers that can turn it off. Two of them are tied together and say 70 on them, the other is a 15 amp breaker. The light I was trying to switch has it’s own breaker, as do the basement outlets and the upstairs lights.

My questions are, how is this possible? I Googled it and every site I saw said that if they are tied to two breakers then both need to be turned off to fully turn the power off, but that’s not the case here as turning either one of them off leaves no power. How dangerous might this be? I’ve been here for 18 years and so far no problems. I did have to have the microwave put on its own breaker when I moved in as it was also on the one circuit that was my lights and basement so it was always tripping. Other then that I’ve not had any electrical problems, but I’d rather have things working properly if I can.

2

Jeez, ok. Sounds messy. What are you using to verify that voltage is present when checking for voltage? If you are using a non-contact volt sensor this can give false positives. I have a feeling you “think” there are multiple breakers feeding the various itesm when, in fact, there isn’t.

3

Upon re-reading, you have a split-bus panel. The 2 pole 70 feeds half the panel where the single 15 resides. This is a normal condition (installation) in older homes.

4

Recent thread concerning Split-Bus Panels

5

Hey, that’s my thread. BTW, here’s the diagram from the breaker box:
Imgur

See the “sub-section main” bit? That’s the breaker that connects the top half with the bottom half of the panel. It says 100 A max here, but in this particular case it was a 60 A breaker. I believe that it will always occupy the lower-right slot in the upper half. Any given circuit fed from the bottom can be shut off either via that 60 A breaker or the relevant one in the lower half. Some high-powered circuits, like the AC, were only fed from the upper part and have only one breaker controlling them.

6

If you mean the tool like looks like a large pencil, I do use that yes, but I can also turn off the breaker and see the lights go off.

I don’t fully know what you mean by this, if you mean there are two plates inside the main box, then yes. My father is the one who installed the new breakers, I don’t know enough to play with that so I don’t. I can and have changed switches, outlets, and fixtures in the past.

Photo of electrical box
I’ve attached a photo of what my box looks like. And yes when I turn off the larger one marked Heater my utility room lights go of. If I turn of the one marked Utility and light the utility room goes off. Also when I turn off the Heater the outlets in my basement also turn off, but I can also turn off the one marked Outlets and they will also turn off.

When I first moved in when I would have the TV on and use the microwave it would shut off. I had an electrician come in and run a new breaker and wires for the microwave. That one breaker would also turn off three or four outlets and the lights on the main floor. It would also turn off the basement bathroom and my outside lights in the basement.

My father and I have put in a ceiling in the basement, we installed new wires to turn on the lights. We also put in new breakers for the bathroom in the basement. The breaker labeled Outlets powered ONE outlet in the basement, so we wired all the other outlets in the basement to that one.

When I went to install the new light I took off the old fixture and saw it had two white wires coming in, the ground, and a RED wire. The red I know should be for a three way switch, but there is only one switch for that light, I’m guessing there were plans for the other switch but not installed. The two black wires were tied together with a nut and put in the box. I asked someone to turn of the breaker for me, but he turned off the yellow heater breaker, that’s when I knew something was really off as I have never turned that one off. I went and looked myself and turned the yellow one back on, then turned off the utility room one and it turned off again. That’s when I learned that the yellow breaker would also turn off other parts of the house.

Off the top of my head, the yellow breaker will turn off:
the heater, my upstairs lights, my outlets in the basement, and the outside basement lights. I have not looked to see if other parts of the house get turned off as well. I can also turn each one of those off with a separate breaker. That’s what’s confusing me as I didn’t think something would be controlled by two breakers like that, and some of them are on the other side of the box.

I can take more photos if need be. I’m not playing with the box, but I would like to know if this is really unusual and I should have it fixed up, or if it’s ok. I’ve been here for 18 years and so far no, besides the microwave, I’ve not had any other problems.

7

Any identifying info on the panel? Make, model number, rating, etc.

8

Welp, that is NOT a split bus panel. I can’t fathom why you are experiencing such unusual conditions as you describe. Sparky here for 35 years… I’ve seen it all, but this one is an oddball for sure. What city are you in?

9

If you get the balls to remove the panel cover, take a couple of pics of the inside wiring.

10

I can pull it off, I’m not worried about that, I just wouldn’t run the wires to it.

11

Photos of inside of box.

I took a couple of photos of the box. It’s a Bryant, and on the inside was the same type of document from the other thread. I also noticed that the two large wires from the yellow switch goes underneath the rest of the breakers, and I can’t see where they come out at.

I’m just outside of DC in Gaithersburg, MD. And I just checked the house was built in 1971. It’s a townhouse.

12

Sure looks like a split bus panel, take a look at this post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/askanelectrician/s/tbcDyUoi1K

I have never personally seen one that looks like this, but the top part of the panel is served by the main lugs. The 70A breaker then connects to the lugs (hidden under the bottom breakers) and feeds the bottom half of the panel. Think of the bottom half as a separate subpanel.

If you swipe to the second picture in the linked post, you can see the schematic.

13

Yep, that’s a split-bus.

Currently you’re in compliance with the “rule of six” with exactly six handle-throws required to turn off all power to your house (four two-pole breakers and two single-poles in the top 12 breaker spaces) but if you ever want to use the top-right two spaces you’d have to handle-tie the 15s in spaces 10/12 (and the ones in 2/4 if you install two singles) to stay legal.

It’s very important to actually perform a load calculation when adding new circuits, as there is no main breaker to “keep you honest” and prevent overloading the bus bars in the top half of the panel, or the service wires.

Also, you must replace those Homeline and Siemens breakers. They are not listed or classified for use in that Bryant panel. They may seem to fit, but they do not. Bus stab and breaker clip designs are subtly different, and improperly mis-matching them can damage the bus bars.

Finally, it looks like two circuits have both their ground and neutral wires landed in one neutral/ground bar screw. That’s also a code violation. Neutral wires must always be landed as the only thing under a screw. For grounds, panel labeling/instructions (which must be followed) usually allow two per screw. The reason for not pairing neutral and ground under one screw is that if the pair ever slips out from under the screw but stays together, then the ground for that circuit (which tends to be connected to various exposed metal) becomes electrified (through the load) and potentially deadly to anyone who touches it. That’s bad.

14

Not with a 10 foot pole.

15

We didn’t put in the Homeline, we did the Siemens. We took one of the original breakers and the Siemens matched everything on the outside. But I will talk to my father when he comes back, he lives 7 hours away.

I will have my father look at that too.

So what I have then is a box without a main shut off switch and the two silver and one yellow are needed to turn all of the power off in the house? Which means the yellow is not actually the heater, and that’s why I get parts of the house turned off with it and it’s normal.

16

No, there are six breakers you have to throw to turn off all power to your house: the two grays, the blue, the yellow, and the top two Siemens (the ones directly across from the yellow).

The yellow powers all the spaces that are vertically below it. You are correct, it should not be labeled “heater”.

17

That’s interesting because the blue one only turns off the oven, the grey on the right turns off just the dryer, the other grey is labeled AC? and didn’t turn anything off.

Except it doesn’t. It will turn off a couple of them, but not all of them. And it will turn off at least two of the blue ones on the right side. I haven’t fully run around the house looking to see.

18

Cripes, what a mess. I was also an electrician for some years and never ran into a clusterfuck like that.

19

Your panel does not have any single main breaker. It has 12 spaces at top (six each on the left and the right) that are all connected directly to the incoming service wires from your electric meter. I was imprecise in my previous post: the six breakers you must throw to turn off power to your entire house are: the gray double-pole marked “A/C”, the blue double-pole marked “Oven”, the gray double-pole marked “Dryer”, the yellow double-pole marked “Furnace Main”/“Heater”/“House Washer Utility Light”, and the two Siemens single-poles marked “Basement Main Light” and “Basement Bath”.

The blue-handled tandems (two “15” handles in one single-width package) are not mains.

20

The yellow should turn off every space vertically below it: that includes the spaces in both the left-hand column and the right-hand column. See the diagram Dr. Strangelove posted earlier.