Unusual home electrical problem. Any suggestions?

For about the last three days, I’ve encountered an unusual electrical problem in my home. In two rooms (and along one wall of a third,) I’ve encountered tempory power losses from the outlets. It doesn’t affect anything but the outlets.
Now, a little more background. The three rooms are the master bedroom, the dining area (right below the master,) and one wall in the kitchen (next to the dining area.) The breaker isn’t tripping and according to the box diagram, they don’t share any breakers anyway. Everything plugged in anywhere in those rooms just shuts off for 1-4 seconds.
We haven’t made any changes in these rooms recently; no new appliances, nothing moved and plugged into different outlets, nothing. The one change that was made was that the electric company came out and put a new digital meter on our house. It hangs in the exact same spot as the old one and I don’t see how that could be the problems since it’s my understanding that it goes directly to the breaker box.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated - DESK

My guess:
Ignore the breaker diagram - they are all using a single breaker, and there is a bad (intermittent) connection, either at the breaker itself, or at the first outlet “upstream” from the problem.

You probably have resistance in the circuit somewhere causing the voltage to drop.
You need to do voltage drop tests (or find an electrican to do them)
It could be something simple like a breaker that came unclipped or a bad breaker. On the other hand it could be a bad connection in a junction box.
If you have a DMM and want to takle ask and I will tell you how to do the tests.
One word of warning. Electrical resistance causes heat. Heat causes fires. Do not ignore this and hope it goes away, get it fixed.

Rick, I have a DMM and some experience with electricity, mainly DC storage (“backup”) batteries. I have some real world (practical) experience with AC but very little knowledge (theoretical.)
Basically, I know when to stop trying stuff and get an expert. Testing I’m comfortable with. Your directions would really be a help. I’m planning on getting a real electrician to fix anything but I’d like to narrow down the problem first.

Thanks - DESK

See if a 230V appliance (dryer) still works when the affected outlets are down.

I suspect you may be losing one phase at the service entrance. If so, then you will also lose any 230V outlets.

Simplified explanation: You have three wires coming into the house, they are at 0, +115, and -115VAC. Some of the 115V loads run off the 0 and +115V wires, and the rest run off the 0 and -115V wires. All the 230V loads run off the +115 and - 115V wires.

Most breaker boxes have two columns of slots. The slots on each column alternate between being fed from one phase to the other. If the outlets that are failing are in alternate slots, then my guess is correct. If the are in adjacent slots, I am wrong.

We have two 230v lines, the fridge and the electric dryer. Neither have been affected. The rest of the110v house {living room, other two bedrooms, the basement or garage,) haven’t been effected. That’s what confuses me

What’s the weather like where you are?

P.S. Did you intend this thread for GQ?

Here’s a little theoretical knowledge to help you figure out what you are looking at.

Most homes (in the U.S. at least) are fed from a center tapped transformer. The center tap is grounded, which gives you two “hot” lines. The voltage between either hot line and the neutral is 120 volts, and the voltage from one hot line to the other is 240 volts. The center tap (neutral) is physically connected to earth ground (literally, by either the water pipes in an old house or by a copper rod in a newer house) somewhere close to the breaker box.

The three wires (line 1, line 2, and neutral) all come into your breaker box. The neutral line goes directly to a bus bar in there, and the two lines (aka phases) go through the main breakers.

From the breaker box, the wires all go out through your house. Most breaker boxes are set up so that the slots alternate between phase 1 and phase 2, as Kevbo said. If you want a 120 volt wire, you install one breaker in the slot. If you need a 240 volt wire, you insert a breaker that takes up two slots, so that it gets one wire from phase 1 and the other wire from phase 2.

Here’s a diagram in case it still isn’t clear:

If the electrician who wired up your house did his job properly, half of your outlets will be on phase 1 and half of them will be on phase 2, and all of your 240 volt appliances will be connected to both phase 1 and phase 2. On the other hand, if you’re the idiot who wired up my house, you end up with all of the outlets around the outside of the house on one phase and almost nothing on the other. :rolleyes: Anyway, grumbling aside, the point is that many houses aren’t wired up with the outlets split exactly evenly like they should be.
From each breaker, the wires go out to branch circuits. Each circuit will go from one outlet to another to another (or to light switches and that sort of thing). Sometimes you will have junction boxes which split the branch into two paths.

As to which breaker goes where, this is all supposed to be labeled neatly and properly on the breaker box. However, I have never, ever, lived in a house where the labels were correct. I’m sure there are some out there somewhere, but most of the ones I’ve encountered have either been blank or wrong. People switch out fuses for breakers or make major wiring changes and no one ever bothers to update the list. So, never assume that the list is right, because usually it isn’t.

Now, back to your problem. If you are losing a bunch of outlets, either they are all on the same branch and you just lost that branch, or you’ve lost one of your phases coming in. Since the electric company just made a change at the meter, that makes a phase problem more likely.

Take your handy dandy DMM and measure the voltage between phase 1 to neutral and phase 2 to neutral. If you aren’t comfortable poking around in your fuse box, you can measure this at your dryer or oven. You aren’t looking for the exact number here, because the voltage to your house can vary. Power companies used to guarantee +/- 10 percent, but these days a lot of them guarantee +/- 5 percent, so if you are off by that much it is perfectly fine (generally speaking, the farther you are from the nearest substation the lower your voltage will be). What you are looking for here is a difference in voltage between the two phases. If phase 1 is 119 volts and phase 2 is only 115 volts, that means you’ve got a connection problem with phase 2. (very likely, given your symptoms).

If the phases are identical in voltage, you can repeat the test with the problem outlets, and see if they have a reduced voltage even while they seem to be operating properly. That also would indicate a bad connection someplace.

As for what the specific problem is, it could be a bad or loose connection at the transformer or meter, it could be a bad connection inside the breaker box itself, or it could be a bad connection on the branch circuit, if all of these outlets are on the same branch. The bad connection could be on either the hot side (the black wires) or the neutral side (the white wires). By the way, the third wire (green) is a protective ground, and doesn’t carry current under normal circumstances, so it can’t be the problem here.

Another problem you could have is a corroded earth ground connection. This is dangerous, because it can make one phase go down while the other goes up by the same amount. In other words, you could end up with 40 volts on phase 1 and 200 volts on phase 2 (but still 240 volts between phase 1 and 2) if the ground connection is bad. This could damage everything on the phase that ends up with the higher voltage, and as a result it can easily result in a fire in your house.

Feel free to poke around with your meter, but intermittent connections also tend to be hot connections due to more current being forced through a smaller area of connection. This is what causes house fires. Get this fixed ASAP.

OK, remember Ohm’s law? As resistance goes up, voltage goes down assuming the current draw remains constant. We are going to go look for resistance by check for that voltage drop.
Warning These tests are simple, but if you fuck up, you can get shocked or killed. Never forget the words of the that great philosopher Kenny Rogers who said: “You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them, know when to walk away and know when to run”
You will need:
DMM
an insulated screwdriver (maybe two depending on size)
I would also suggest that you wear rubber soled shoes and not stand in a bucket of water while doing these tests. :smiley:
first off verify if all the failures are on one breaker or multiple breakers. If multiple breakers see if they are side by side, or every other one. (Like Kevbo suggested)
Plug in an incandescent light into one of the affected sockets and turn it on. It’s OK if the light goes out, leave it in the on position. <- This is a must or the tests won 't work
Now set your DMM to AC voltage and stick the leads into the other receptacle in that plug What reading do you get? I will guess that it is above zero V but way less than 110. If this is what you have, it is for sure a resistance in the circuit.
Leave the light plugged in.
Take the cover off the electrical panel.
Look at the inside of the unit. You will see two bars that connect to one side of the breakers. If you look closely, you will see that the first breaker is connected to one bar, and the next breaker to the other. they alternate all the way down the box.
Look closely, does anything look heated, cooked, or blackened? That might be your problem.
I don’t think you have an available voltage problem, but let’s check. Place one lead of the DMM on the neutral or ground bus and the other first on one bus and then the other. The available voltage should be the same or damn close on both. If there is a large difference, the new meter might not be making good contact on one side.
All OK so far, OK, now let’s move on.
Find the affected breaker. Is it snapped in tight? If no, try removing it (it pivots out from the bus bar) and resetting it. Did that fix the problem? If yes you might need to buy a new breaker as the clips that hold it in appear to be weak.
But lets assume that that does not fix the problem. Set you meter to AC voltage. Place one lead from the DMM to the bus bar, and the other to the screw where the wire is secured on the other side of the breaker. What voltage reading are you getting? If the breaker is good, you will read either very little or zero. If the breaker has resistance you will read the voltage that dropped across the breaker.
take your screwdriver and check to see if the screw is tight on the breaker. Then check the all the white wires on the neutral bus bar and make sure they are all tight.
Haven’t found anything yet? Turn around and say Hi to Mr. Murphy, as he is standing right behind you.
Turn off the breaker in question, and go test to see if any additional outlets are dead. If there is an additional outlet dead, take the face plate off of that outlet and look at the wiring, is there any sign of overheating in there? Check for a voltage drop from where the wiring comes into that box and where it leaves.
Good luck

Moving from IMHO to General Questions.

Pretty sure your fridge is just a 20A 110 V appliance. The stove, on the other hand, if it’s not gas, would be 220V.

I like the “missing one phase” theory. It fits in with the recent meter replacement.

Are there any circumstances surrounding the short power outages? Does it happen when something is turned on or running? Windy or not windy? How often does it happen?

Man alive!

Just from your original post you need a expert before your humble abode burns down!

“Honest, Fire Chief, I was meaning to call an electrician once I ‘narrowed down the problem first.’”

I’m having a hard time with this. How could a bad ground cause one phase to go up and the other down?
All the consumers are tied to the neutral bar at the box. The neutral bar is tied to the ground at the box.
How could a bad ground effect one phase one way and the other phase the other way?
:confused:

if the receptacles are in the same area a neutral wire connection serving them may be an intermittent good/bad connection. this can happen with circuits on different breakers.

The only way I can see this happening is if the neutral bus bar in the breaker box came unbonded. Otherwise AFAIK, all circuits are required to have their own neutral wire, since it needs to carry the same current as the hot wire (and therefore can’t be shared between breakers).

The room next to and below the master are affected. That sounds like a shared circuit coming from the basement and feeding the two rooms. That is a clear indication that one of the receptacles (on the circuit) has a loose connection because they are daisy chained together. That means a still functioning receptacle or junction closer to the fuse box has a loose connection on the outgoing side. If the breaker is in the basement and you don’t have a basement ceiling it should be easy to trace the wires to see where they enter the floor above.

Picture breaking the neutral/ground connection coming out of the box. Now you’ve got a floating neutral. The two phase voltages are at a fixed differential of 240 volts, but the house neutral is no longer tied to 0 volts. It floats. What you end up with is a voltage divider whose value depends on the loads connected between phase 1 and phase 2 to neutral. If the current through phase 1 and phase 2 are exactly equal, then you’ll measure 120-0-120. If there is twice as much current going through phase 1 as phase 2, then you’ll measure 80-0-160.

ETA: The same thing can basically happen if you have a box with multiple neutral bus bars, and the connection between one of these bus bars and the main neutral coming into the box gets corroded.

neutrals after the breaker box can be connected in many locations. a splice feeding a string of devices could become intermittent.

Daisy chining through outlet is common by DYIers but should never be done. The wires should be daisy chained through the box with pig tails and not daisy chained through the outlet.

Yes, but not on different circuits (breakers).