Handgun Registration

There’s a raging argument in the Pit at the moment over firearms registration. I myself have gotten way out of hand, not exactly a foreign condition for myself, I know. But I’d like to reduce the level of vicious rhetoric a bit, so I’m starting this thread here to debate the merits of handgun registration. I’m truly interested in knowing what benefits, the proponents of firearm registration believe, will accrue to society. I promise to maintain a civil tongue.

Here’s a few guidelines I’d like to ask we all try to adhere to. I believe these boundaries reflect the provisions of the most likely to be passed registration law.
[ul]
[li]First, for the sake of this argument, we’ll assume that the 2nd amendment does indeed allow private citizens to own handguns. I do not wish to debate the validity of the 2nd amendment right now.[/li][li]Second, let’s say this registration applies only to handguns at this time. Revolvers, semi-auto pistols and single shot target models. Antique and curio handguns are not affected by this proposed registration law, nor are rifles, or shotguns of any kind.[/li][li]Third, I’d like to limit this discussion to the registration of handguns, not handgun owners. I don’t wish to argue about licensing firearm owners. That’s a whole different debate, in my opinion.[/li][li]Fourth, can we assume this proposed registration to be a federal, not state, regulation? This may not be the most likely form a registration law would take, but it should help eliminate the pedantic arguments over state-to-state inequities, and private sales that cross state lines.[/li][li]Fifth, I do not want to hear any objections about the NRA (or HCI) being biased sources. Of course, they are biased. They are both biased in favor of their agenda. This is their raisons d’être.[/li][/ul]

Okay, I believe we have some decent boundaries for this topic. The scope may be narrow, but I’d like a focused argument. That may help reduce the emotion.

There is one provision of some proposed registration packages that I’ve not mentioned in the guidelines above. That is, are we going to register all handguns when sold, or only those purchased from FFL (Federal Firearms License) holders and dealers? That is to say, are we also going to register handguns sold by, and to, private citizens? If you feel all handgun purchases should be registered with the authorities, please explain your mechanism for registering purchases from private owners, keeping in mind that it must be fast and accurate.

My next post will contain my objections to a handgun registration law. I’m sure you’ll have heard most of them in one form or another and many of them from me before. That makes my objections no less valid and this will give you registration proponents a condensed location to attempt to pick them apart.

First, I’m going to copy a portion of a recent post I made in the Maryland Shell Casing thread, on what I feel the goals of good gun legislation should be. A good law should do one or more of the following:
[list=1]
[li]Prevent criminals from obtaining useable guns in the first place.[/li][li]Reduce the incidence of firearms used in crime.[/li][li]Aid the authorities in prosecution of criminals after a gun is used in the commission of a crime.[/li][li]Increase gun safety and reduce accidents of legitimate users.[/li][/list=1]
Now, let’s see if handgun registration has any positive effects on the items above. First, definitions for some terms I’ll use below.
[ul]
[li]Known Criminal – this is a convicted felon. A person known by the courts and police to be ineligible to own handguns under current laws.[/li][li]Unknown Criminal – this is a person who has never been convicted of a crime. Whether he’s committed a crime, which would disqualify him from handgun ownership is immaterial. The authorities must, under current law, allow this person to purchase handguns from any source. You may consider this person to be purchasing the handgun for use in criminal enterprise.[/li][li]Legitimate User – this is a person who has never committed a crime which would disqualify him from handgun ownership under current laws, and has no intent to use that handgun for nefarious purposes.[/li][/ul]
[list=1]
[li]Does registration prevent criminals from obtaining guns? I don’t believe so. Criminals will do everything they can to avoid registration of handguns. At any rate, we have the “Gun Violence Prevention Act of 1994,” also known as the “Brady Law” for preventing known criminals from purchasing handguns. The Clinton Administration claims this law to be an unqualified success at keeping handguns out of the hands of known criminals. While that’s debatable, I’ll stipulate it for our purposes here. It’s simply outside the scope of what I wish to argue. So, registration either does nothing, or is unnecessary, to keep criminals from obtaining guns.[/li][li]Will registration of handguns reduce the use of them in the commission of a crime? I don’t believe so, since a person intent upon using a handgun for criminal purposes is going to do everything he can to avoid registration of that gun. If you can tell me how registration would reduce the incidence of handgun crime, please explain.[/li][li]Will registration of handguns aid authorities in tracing and prosecuting criminals after the commission of a gun crime? Remotely possible. To analyze the efficacy of this measure, we need first to determine how and where criminals obtain firearms. I shall now attempt to do so.[/li][ul]
[li]If known criminals are buying handguns through legitimate dealers, they and the dealer are already in violation of several current laws. Registration is going to have no effect since it’ll be avoided, just like these people are avoiding the Brady Law. Registration is useless in tracing this category of handguns.[/li][li]If known, or unknown criminals, are purchasing handguns from private citizens, registration may have some effect, if, and only if, that gun, when used in a subsequent crime by the registered purchaser, can be traced and linked “beyond reasonable doubt” to the registered purchaser. This requires a long unbroken trail and isn’t very likely, in my opinion. It also requires the registration of purchases from and to private citizens. This is supposed to take place through some still unexplained mechanism. It also still requires placing the perpetrator at the scene of the crime. The authorities will likely find the registration of handguns obtained by this method does little to help them trace and successfully prosecute the suspect.[/li][li]If known, or unknown criminals are obtaining guns by simply stealing them, obviously registration will do nothing to help trace and prosecute these people.[/li][li]If known, or unknown criminals are buying guns illegally on a black- or gray-market, registration again can do nothing to help trace and prosecute a criminal.[/li][li]If known, or unknown criminals are self-manufacturing handguns, I believe it is laughable to consider the likelihood of them registering that gun.[/li][/ul]
[li]Does registration promote gun safety and reduce accidents of legitimate (and even illegitimate) users? Not a chance.[/li][/list=1]
So, we’ve seen what registration cannot do, and that is, reduce gun crime or increase public safety. Now let’s take a look at what registration can do. When looking at this, please keep in mind, the burden of proof of the benefit to society from registering handguns, lies with the proponents of this legislation. Mere opposition to my objections, on any basis, is not good enough reason to pass a law. You must conclusively show the benefit to society outweighs the costs for this to be a good and valid law. Showing only that it does no harm to legitimate users or owners, is not an acceptable reason to pass a handgun registration law, or any law, for that matter.

Again, I’m sure you’ve heard all these costs to legitimate user before. Still, that makes them no less valid. Please counter them by showing that the benefit to society outweighs these costs.
[ul]
[li]Registration affects legitimate users only. Known, and unknown criminals will do everything possible to avoid registering a handgun, especially if their intent is to use it the commission of a crime later. This alone makes registration an unnecessary component in fighting crime.[/li][li]Registration allows the authorities to pinpoint legitimate owners only. In the case a tyrannical government somehow comes to power, this database would allow a despot to confiscate handguns from otherwise law-abiding owners. Please note this still does nothing about the unregistered handguns in the possession of criminals. It’s possible the criminal element would become unchecked by the threat of force from private citizens in the case of confiscation. Witness the organized crime that’s rampant in Russia.[/li][li]User fees. This could be used merely as another tax upon the populace. The potential for abuse through levying exorbitant registration fees could result in a de-facto handgun ban. Especially for those of limited and fixed incomes who have the same right of self-defense as any other individual. It is immoral to prevent an otherwise law-abiding citizen from using the very method of self-defense that he may be threatened with.[/li][li]New criminals. Since I’ve shown above that handgun registration has little or no effect on crime and criminals, it merely creates a new class of criminal. Those otherwise law-abiding citizens who would avoid, or attempt to avoid, registering their handguns.[/li][li]Abuse and mistakes. The potential for abuse or mistakes by the authorities when tracing owners of guns linked to crimes is very real. If a gun is stolen from a law-abiding owner, and subsequently used in the commission of a crime, it’s entirely possible that owner could be falsely accused of a crime. It’s also possible for that person to be falsely convicted and imprisoned for that crime. I have no faith in the authorities to maintain an up-to-date and error free database, especially when sales take place between private owners. The monetary costs of legal defense for this falsely accused citizen could be vast, not to mention the stigma attached to it. Many employers and application forms ask if a person has been accused of a felony.[/li][/ul]

There ya have it. Take it away, Don Pardo.

well i just happened by and saw this thread and i figured i’d drop in :slight_smile:

if there’s a registration law and a person intent on using a handgun for criminal purpose is found with a gun that he did everything he could to avoid registering up to and including not registering, the gun can be confiscated (if found on him) and he can be arrested. now the person has a record, a mug shot, fingerprints on file. if that person was hoping to commit a crime anonymously with an unregistered gun and a clean record, he’ll have to think twice before attempting this again. now his mug shot can be picked out by a witness, his fingerprints can be traced, etc. of course if he was never picked up, he could still commit the handgun crime. obviously you can’t prevent every crime, but if registration laws enable citizens to buy all the guns they want while enabling the confiscation of guns bought anonymously, perhaps saving a life here and there, i don’t see the problem. and as i said in the emotional pit thread, the argument that the gov’t will eventually confiscate our registered guns is slippery slope.

But how many people do you think would fall into the very narrow category you’ve defined. You have an impressive string of “ifs” there, zwaldd. And then you give us the old standby, “perhaps saving a life here and there.” Well, any law may save a life or two. You also have not shown that the benefit of these “one or two saved lifes” is greater than the cost of lifes that may be forfeit because exorbitant registration fees have prevented lower-income users from obtaining a legitimate means of self defense.

And if your only goal of firearms laws is to save lives, why not advocate a total handgun ban, rather than just registration? As a corollary, if you do advocate a total gun ban (which I do not know and is probably outside the scope here), then the slippery slope is no fallacy. Prior registration of all handguns is a necessary precursor to a total ban and confiscation of all handguns.

Finally, the scenario you present, would require registration of all handgun sales, including those between private owners. You’ve shown no mechanism by which this will take place. From that I construe, you to be assuming a perfect system exists, in which all sales are recorded immediately and flawlessly. Nothing works like that, least of all a government program.

You’ve shown no provable benefit and addressed none of the costs.

OK, I’d like to suggest a possible benefit to gun registration.

Currently, no-one has a very accurate figure for how many guns are in private ownership. There are many estimates, with a huge gap between the highest and lowest.

I’ve seen you frequently remind people that very little gun crime is committed by rank and file gun owners. This is a very strong argument against those who would like to ban people from legitimately owning handguns. It would be a stronger argument if you give an exact figure, such as “in year x, only 00.001% of registered firearms were involved in a crime”.

don’t make them exorbitant.

because i like guns.

and i’m the one with the ‘if’ problem?

yeah, but now you’re getting into an ‘all dachsunds are dogs so all dogs are dachsunds’ fallacy, whatever that’s called.

we’re not debating the mechanism here, but whatever records walmart keeps can just be kept on a nationally accessible database. it took me ten minutes to buy a gun there while they wrote down some info and did a quick computer check. i really didn’t feel like my rights were being infringed.

the thing about saving lives.

Come on, cars are regestered up the wazoo, you can’t hide a car in your pocket nor can you toss it in a sewer during a chase, but cars are stolen all the time. Registration isn’t stopping these crimes, its merely letting the owner retrieve his property if found. Gun registration will not enable us to pinpoint any criminals but will merely create a database of guns. Since, IIRC, the gun is totally identified on the background info check you fill out when purchasing a gun we also get a decent list of gun owners.
How convenient.
Now, I’m no conspiracy theorist but just because I trust my friend to drive his car doesn’t mean I want him to drive mine. That is, I am not accusing our current government of wanting to use this would-be database for any nefarious purposes but that doesn’t mean I want that potential to exist, yeah?

We’ve got, IMO, more than enough gun laws right now. Zwaldd, somewhere I outlined the “slippery slope” argument that regulation leads to ban(in the general case) in another thread…want me to dig it up?

dig away. however since you’re using the car analogy that gun law opponents inexplicable think supports their views, why not just show us how car registration has led to the outlawing of cars?

All right, Gary. Let me see if I have this correct. You are saying that a benefit of registration would be more accurate statistics on gun use? I don’t think anyone, not even the most staunch gun control advocate, denies the vast majority of guns are used peaceably. Adding a couple decimal points of precision to the statistics doesn’t really accomplish anything significant, or address any of the goals I’ve listed above for good gun laws, does it? If I’ve misinterpreted your post or intentions, please correct me.

But (and even knowing how you don’t like the use of admittedly distortable statistics in support of an argument), let me see what I can dig up on the numbers of handguns owned in the U.S. and the percentage of those used in crime. I’ll even avoid what could be called biased sources.

From the Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics, 1999, in 1998 in the United States there were 7,443,670 “crimes of violence.” Of these 6.4% involved the use of a handgun, giving us 475,754 violent handgun crimes. This does not say how many times a single handgun was used for more than one criminal act. (You’ll need the Adobe Acrobat reader to view this page) http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/1995/pdf/t315.pdf

The National Criminal Justice Reference Service http://www.ncjrs.org estimates gun ownership in the U.S. in report dated May, 1997 to be 200 million, 65 million of which are handguns. http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt

If we take the numbers above, even discounting the fact that a single handgun may be implicated in more than one crime, we see that, a mere 0.73% of them are used in the commission of a violent crime. If we knew how many of these were used in multiple crimes, the percentage would be far lower.

Zwaldd, I’m gonna get to you in a minute. For starters though, you’ve ignored the guidelines I’ve posted above.

Zwaldd, as I just stated in the post above, you’ve ignored some of the ground rules of this topic. First, you say, that “we’re not debating the mechanism here, but whatever records walmart keeps can just be kept on a nationally accessible database.” If you note my original post, and since you are apparently an advocate of registration, you must provide some system for keeping an up to date database. To simply wish a perfect system into existence isn’t going to work. It must be a workable system. As I outlined above, “If you feel all handgun purchases should be registered with the authorities, please explain your mechanism for registering purchases from private owners.” So yes, we are debating the mechanism.

I’m sorry, but Walmart’s record of purchase system may be fine for a large dealer, how do you intend to record purchases of handguns between private owners? You can’t dance around the issue. You either wish to record them, or you do not. If you do, again, you must provide a feasible system. There’s a whole host of other problems here, like the magnitude and permanence of the data, but since this system cannot be applied to private sale, it’s fatally flawed anyway.

Now, addressing your assertion that we simply don’t levy “exorbitant fees,” I’m afraid you, meaning, the private citizen, has no say in what those fees will be. Do you get to tell the Bureau of Motor Vehicles what you are willing to pay for you automobile registration? No. I can think of several states that levy auto registration according to the value of the car. Some of these fees can total several hundred dollars. This is what I mean when I say that fees could prevent lower-income persons from obtaining a handgun.

And I’ve shown costsin lives that could easily outweigh this benefit.

Out of context quote. Ignored.
Again, show me some benefits of handgun registration that are not outweighed by the costs.

Well, it regulation leads to ban in the general case. Instead of digging the argument back up let me see if I can restate it here, though in a less complex manner.
First of all, just because something isn’t banned now does not mean it won’t get banned in the future. Cars have only been in the public domain for just over 100 years whereas guns have been around far, far longer than that. It would seem that, of the two, guns would then be the first to go in our asymptotic (slippery slope) scenario.

Anyway.

Assuming regulation will not lead to a ban assumes quite a few things. In no particular order:

  1. That the commodity or activity in question will not change. If there is no change then there is no need, in theory, of infinite laws leading to ban because we can nail the sucker.
  2. Society itself will reconsider the purpose of regulation. The motivation for regulation is to trade freedoms for security. Were this to change, for whatever reason, then no slippery slope argument can apply. However, this would be such a strange society that no other argument would apply either. It is an unknowable, though possible.
  3. Society itself will stop changing. This is a superset of (one). If society stops changing issues stop changing and so we can create a finalized body of laws.

If you deny these you find that we cannot stop regulation on any particular item or action unless the benefits gained from regulation when compared to the effort required to obtain these benefits are negligble when contrasted to the problems currently existing that said regulation is being proposed for in the first place. Meaning, regulation will not lead to ban if there is some ineffeble point where we finally can say, “Well, that about does it” and clap the dust of our hands.
As far as gun control goes you mentioned saving lives. Now, my data may not be absolutely correct but the last news report I saw mentioned approximately 40,000 handgun deaths a year. In comparison with the total number of people alive in the US at any one moment in time we find that, 40K/250M ~ 0.016% of our populace dies every year from handguns. Now, forgive me for being “cold” but this seems to be such an incredibly small figure that I can’t quite see how improving it will be noticeable. This percentage point is off, as well, because the latest census report seems to indicate a US population of about 280M IIRC. You’d have to find a whole lot more handgun deaths to compensate for that.
That’s it from my end :slight_smile:

Zwald said

You are asking the wrong question. Show me how registration of cars has stopped unlicensed drivers from driving.

If you want to carry on the analogy, also explain why we do not have a 30 mph speed limit, considering that it would probably save more lives than those that are caused by a gun in toto.

record firearm transactions in a computer database. what’s the problem? lots of records are recorded in databases. i’m not introducing some new unexplored technology here.

require registration documentation to be filed with whatever agency maintains the registration database.

but your argument is that low income users can’t afford it. they can afford auto registration can’t they? why do you assume they won’t be able to afford gun registration? hint - the car analogy will never help your cause.

and i just showed why what you showed doesn’t make sense.

i already did. we disagree on the value of the benefit.
and mr zambezi

i don’t want to carry on the analogy. the guns/cars analogy doesn’t help this debate. but i was making the point for aynrandlovers benefit that registration does not lead to banning.

Yep UB, you’ve got point, but let me try to be clearer as to what I mean.

First, thanks for digging out those figures. I’ll use them in trying to illustrate my point (and remember, all I’m trying to do is give you a possible benefit).

First assumption (and I list it because it’s the obvious weak point in the theory):

A person who has a gun for criminal intent is very unlikely to register that gun, or at least less likely to register it than a normal gun user.

Aim:

The figure you give, that is 0.73% of handguns are used in violent crime, is too high. That’s because the 475,754 violent handgun crimes you mention is going to be largely down to people who obtained handguns with criminal intent, usually through either illegal or at least irregular means, rather than your standard gun owner.

So, we get regular gun users to register their handguns. Now we can give definitive figures. Imagine if you could show, beyond argument, that normal gun users were responsible for 0.073%, or even lower. Without argument.
Sort of blows any call to outlaw the legal ownership of handguns by everyday citizens, doesn’t it?

Ah, I see. The “one or two lives” registration “may” save are of greater value than the lives that may be forfeit. Great logic.

I see now where you are going, Gary. That’s quite interesting and something I’ve never seem claimed before. Hmmmm.

Here’s something else I ran across while searching out those numbers. Of the, whatever the total was (I don’t recall offhand), number of people actually arrested for handgun crimes, 23% of them were under the age of 18. In other words, nearly a quarter of the arrests were of people who already are unable to legally possess handguns. Obviously, registration has no effect on the group of crimes and criminals either. This also was in a report from one of the sources linked above, not a typically biased source.

I think that the point is that registration makes confiscation and banning very, very easy.

As far as I know, there is no movement to ban autos (at least not a big one.) But there are many who would ban handguns.

We are concerned about the protection of the people from the government, not the other way around.

…I don’t understand order so ::::::::

  1. I am worried about “z’s” opinion that some amount of guns will be discovered by the police on people or in their cars and homes and they will be deemed illegal. This will be done legally how? New laws about body searches by check points in malls? metal detectors in public places? Laws to grant searches of any car of any reason even without probable cause? A speeding ticket is probable cause for a car search? The general public will be accepting of the delays beside the road this will cause? I have an object in my pocket and it makes a noise when I bump into a counter at the Wal-Mart and the clerk calls security and they search me for ‘a gun’ in my pocket?

  2. A hand gun = aA½ inch x 6 inch piece of pipe, a threaded cap with a hole in it, a marble or bearing and a fireworks. No serial numbers unfortunately Other things are called ZIP besides computer stuff.

  3. Why will the gun control crowd not look at what is happening in England and Australia? A lot more harm that gain already in any way of measuring. These are not ‘dictatorships’ but very free places very much like here and the direction it is going is very scary that they are going.

  4. Along the lines of what Unc a B has said, where is the precedent for assuming that the ‘government’ will remain at one level of intrusion it the citizens lives?

i already argued that your argument that registration will cause lives to be forfeited is flawed.

the idea is to enact reasonable legislation before they inact unreasonble legislation.

in the same manner that cops already use when they find guns on people. existing metal detector scenarios, routine traffic stops, etc. no new search laws required.

Some nits to pick…

No one wants to outlaw cars. Some wish to outlaw guns. The car analogy generally illustrates the point that cars injure and kill more so than guns, and no amount of registration and drivier training and laws like speed limits seem to prevent auto deaths. It clearly follows that handgun registration will not prevent gun deaths either.

And,

How is it that you equate the propsition of “To get to C you must go through A and B” to be the same as “A is a subset of ABC, therefore all of ABC is A”?

Zambezi:

Are there? (Sincere question.) Who are they? Are there “many” of them, relatively speaking? I mean, there are “many” who believe that Jews control the world’s financial system…quantify your terms for me, if you please.