2nd Amendment: Out of "Guns and Freedom" thread...

Freedom,

regarding the message some pages back… The second amendment reading I seconded (can’t speak for the original mover of that idea)… I am ignorant of the constitution and its amendments b/c I’m not a US citizen, to begin… but my understanding was that it did refer to a regulated militia, over and above the right of individuals to keep and bear arms. However, I don’t see how these are mutually exclusive.

here’s a link of interest, and a quote from it. http://www.redshift.com/~jamesm2/2nda2.htm

The author of the page offers his reading:

If you wanna talk constitutional law, you have to understand paliamentary decorum too… and this is where I see this whole subset of OP (ie. 2nd amendment rights) hinging. This guy is right about what he says in the use of the comma… they’re following a specific decorum of parliamentary wording by identifying the subject first. Read in its historical context, I fail to see how the good Cap’n is reading the emphasis of standing militia (and therefore privately owned and kept guns) wrongly.

However…

This is the line being contended by you and others… and perhaps rightfully so. If the system for public law enforcement and protection does NOT work, however, does that mean it’s justification for a regular citizen, not part of a “well-regulated militia”, to immediately and with good speed respond with deadly force via a firearm? In asking for this amendment to be clarified, in effect, would be to seek a better wording which recognizes that things have changed within the States; there is no need for a well regulated militia as was understood by the person’s that established the amendment. The notion didn’t expire at all, but the development of full standing armies and public law enforcement made it unnecessary. Arguably, this is the government encroaching on a freedom, sure. But I fail to see how it’s a right in the first place, in the sense of self-protection. It seems, rather, to be concerned with the safety and protection of the State. A whole other ball game. In fact, the 2nd amendment (in my mind) seems closer to the right of any person in the US to join the military voluntarily and serve a term.

Besides… (as your linked Declaration allowed me to find)

With these rights… unalienable? Who’s right to the pursuit of happiness takes precedence? How about life? A man drowning in the sea…is his right to life unalienable? If I and you were walking on a hot day and saw an ice-cream vendor, both desiring the ice-cream for his own happiness, who’s right to the ice-cream takes precedence? Perhaps its the one who can shoot first and eat ice-cream later. And thats how the laws in Texas ran for a long time… you see me pulling into a parking space that you desired, only had a claim to in your head, and it was justification enough to shoot the man dead and beat a murder 1 charge. “Your honor I was protecting my property”.

I’m not saying that your constitution is wrong, nor your charter of rights and freedoms… just that the reading of them is more nebulous than it seems and far more contextual. And I thought the Bible was hard.

Regards,

Jai Pey

Actually, “right” is the subject.

The preceding wording is a nominative absolute.

Grammar lesson over.

:smiley:

Here’s a link to help you better understand, from a lawyers perspective, as to how and why the Second Amendment exists.
http://www.ourconstitution.com/answerman.htm

Note: The page is poorly designed, but maybe helps you understand.

Thomas Jefferson said: “I hope therefore a bill of rights will be formed to guard the people against the federal government, as they are already guarded against their state governments in most instances.”

Assuming the author of this page is correct on his sources, if Thomas Jefferson had said this in a letter, I truly believe then that the intent of the Second Amendment was to ensure that the people are free from tyranny. He was the original author in the Declaration of Independence and therefore to my understanding, this quote precisely protects an individual from the govt.

As for the right to pursue happiness, this does not mean that you can force someone into creating your happiness for you.

You need to read the entire paragraph for the “pursuit of happiness” part makes sense. The purpose of the DOI was to state that the 13 colonies would no longer be subjected to a tyrannical government. They stated the “crimes” of the monarchy and in this statement of indendence made it clear to why they were breaking from the Great Britian rule.

Here’s the entire paragraph:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers form the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

Learn the true meaning of “militia”

militia does not = national guard, or some other organization.

The anti’s love to play on the ignorance of the public

I thought this would be relevant:

Cornell Law

I also have an article somewhere about the grammar of the Second Amendement. I will dig it out. I think he grammar issue should almost have it’s own thread, to keep it seperate from any justification of the need to keep or get kid of guns.

Sort of like English 101 and the Second Amendment

David B

Quick note: I saw you cut off an articel I posted because it was copyrighted. I’m wondering if you could post here how much we are allowed to post of a copyrighted piece before we cross the line. This piece has permission attached for it to be distributed.

Ok, this thread seemed like as good a place as any to post this. If you are in college, feel free to take this to your professors and see what their opinion is.
The Unabridged Second Amendment
by J. Neil Schulman
If you wanted to know all about the Big Bang, you’d ring up Carl Sagan, right? And if you wanted to know about desert warfare, the man to call would be Norman Schwarzkopf, no question about it. But who would you call if you wanted the top expert on American usage, to tell you the meaning of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution?
That was the question I asked A.C. Brocki, editorial coordinator of the Los Angeles Unified School District and formerly senior editor at Houghton Mifflin Publishers – who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on English usage in the Los Angeles school system. Mr. Brocki told me to get in touch with Roy Copperud, a retired professor of journalism at the University of Southern California and the author of “American Usage and Style: The Consensus.”
A little research lent support to Brocki’s opinion of Professor Copperud’s expertise.
Roy Copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on a distinguished 17-year career teaching journalism at USC. Since 1952, Copperud has been writing a column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for “Editor and Publisher”, a weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field.
He’s on the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary, and Merriam Webster’s Usage Dictionary frequently cites him as an expert. Copperud’s fifth book on usage, “American Usage and Style: The Consensus,” has been in continuous print from Van Nostrand Reinhold since 1981, and is the winner of the Association of American Publisher’s Humanities Award.
That sounds like an expert to me.
After a brief telephone call to Professor Copperud in which I introduced myself but did not give him any indication of why I was interested, I sent the following letter:
"I am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in English usage, to analyze the text of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, and extract the intent from the text.
"The text of the Second Amendment is, ‘A well-regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.’
"The debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence, ‘A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State’, is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause, with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence, ‘the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.’
“I would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy, but be restricted entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent. Further, since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the Second Amendment, I ask that whatever analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation, and even be willing to testify under oath to support, if necessary.”
My letter framed several questions about the text of the Second Amendment, then concluded:
“I realize that I am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task with this letter. I am doing so because, as a citizen, I believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the Second Amendment. While I ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results, I ask that you do this because of that importance.”
After several more letters and phone calls, in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis, but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the Second Amendment, gun control, or any other political subject, Professor Copperud sent me the follow analysis (into which I have inserted my questions for the sake of clarity):
[Copperud:] "The words ‘A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,’ contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of July 26, 1991, constitutes a present participle, rather than a clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying ‘militia,’ which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject ‘the right’, verb ‘shall’). The ‘to keep and bear arms’ is asserted as an essential for maintaining a militia.
"In reply to your numbered questions:
[Schulman:] “(1) Can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to ‘a well-regulated militia’?”
[Copperud:] “(1) The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people.”
[Schulman:] “(2) Is ‘the right of the people to keep and bear arms’ granted by the words of the Second Amendment, or does the Second Amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state that such right ‘shall not be infringed’?”
[Copperud:] “(2) The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia.”
[Schulman:] “(3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well regulated militia is, in fact, necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement ‘the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed’ null and void?”
[Copperud:] “(3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence.”
[Schulman:] “(4) Does the clause ‘A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,’ grant a right to the government to place conditions on the ‘right of the people to keep and bear arms,’ or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?”
[Copperud:] “(4) The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia.”
[Schulman:] “(5) Which of the following does the phrase ‘well-regulated militia’ mean: ‘well-equipped’, ‘well-organized,’ ‘well-drilled,’ ‘well-educated,’ or ‘subject to regulations of a superior authority’?”
[Copperud:] “(5) The phrase means ‘subject to regulations of a superior authority;’ this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military.”
[Schulman:] “(6) (If at all possible, I would ask you to take account of the changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written 200 years ago, but not take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors, unless those issues can be clearly separated.”
[Copperud:] "To the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment. If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged.’
[Schulman:] "As a ‘scientific control’ on this analysis, I would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of

What better place to look for info than our own host:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/950210.html
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/950303.html

I rather like this bit from the second column:

CA> Put yourself in a gun owner’s shoes. While the first half of the
CA> second amendment is no miracle of clarity, the second half is about
CA> as plain as it can be. “The right of the people to keep and bear
CA> arms shall not be infringed.” But gun control advocates deny this
CA> sentence means what it seems perfectly evident it says, and the
CA> courts have backed them up. Gun owners’ recognition that one of
CA> their most cherished rights has been interpreted out of existence
CA> accounts for the apocalyptic tone in which their arguments are
CA> often framed.

I’d also like to point out that the order of the amendments to the Constitution is also highly significant. The First Amendment contains those rights most vital to a free state: speech, religion, a free press, peaceful assembly. The right to bear arms was so cherished and thought so important by the Framers that it was listed second. Does that not carry some weight?

I love Cecil.

Those links were awesome. They are going into my archives of well thought out defenses and explanations of the Second Amendment.

I would love to quote both articles whole, :slight_smile: but here are some nice highlights:

I just had to include those for those who don’t read the links.

Thank you Max. Thank you Cecil.

I appreciated the different definitions of militia, but that isn’t what the 2nd Amendment says, is it? I believe that what is needed is a definition of well regulated militia. Now, if you can convince me that everyone who owns a gun is a part of a well regulated militia, we can move on the second part of the same sentence.

Since you obviously have not read through the links above, let me quote Cecil for you.

From the Second Link:

It’s perfectly clear to me that the 2nd Amendment should, in its wording, keep the gummint from banning guns. As we’ve seen, it’s possible to parse the sentence out ad nauseum, but to maintain that it says something it doesn’t is foolish.

It also doesn’t leave much room for interpretation. Sure, we can argue about the definition of “keep,” “bear,” and “arms,” but the muttering about the first part of the amendment is mostly pointless.

Personally, I’d much prefer to repeal it altogether. But then, I’m obviously a stoopid liberal. :slight_smile:

-andros-

Not necessarily. There were two Amendments proposed before these two. They just weren’t ratified by the states.

andros:

Do you think there would be a civil war if the Second Amendment were to be repealed?

Do you think that people who own guns think that their right to own guns and protect themselves is subject to a vote?

Is your right to free subject up for a vote?

How about the freedom of religion? Can we vote on that?

Andros,

You seem to me to not understand the reasoning behind WHY the Second Amendment was included in the Constitution.

In short, and in part, it was to ensure the people had means by which protecting themselves from a tyrannical government. Also, the original 13 colonies basically required that the average citizen was armed to help the militia when the need arose (uh, the American Revolution comes to mind here)

In today’s reality, it is a means by which to protect our property and our lives. Granted, the society as a whole is somehwat civil, but the deterant of a potential gun is and should be enough to keep would-be criminals from harming a law abiding person.

A recent event in Denver happened where a shop owner was able to save his life because of a gun he possessed. I don’t know if I can pull up the article as it was in the Denver Rocky Mtn. News (their web site has no archives without paying for it,) but as much as he hated killing the man during the shootout, this was not the first time this had happened to him. Had this shop owner not had his gun, he would have been killed in the last incident, I do believe that he did suffer some potentially dangerous wounds, but I may be pulling that out of my arse.

Anyhow, you can be liberal, but you can also be a person that tries their best to understand the Second Amendment and the reasons why it was written. I honestly believe that much of what was written then still applies to us today.

> Not necessarily. There were two Amendments proposed before these two.
> They just weren’t ratified by the states.

Oh, we’re going by stuff that wasn’t ratified, rather than arguing the Constitution alone? Okay, Jefferson’s first proposal for constitutional language was, “No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”

Care to argue about that marvel of clarity?

Max: I’m not talking about any little suggestion that anyone involved in the Constitutional Convention might have made, but about the Amendments that the first Congress offered to the states for ratification. There were twelve of them on the list; what we now call the First Amendment was actually the third. It became the First in the final document not, as you assert, because the framers considered those rights the most important, but because the two they listed before it weren’t ratified by enough states.

FWIW I’m pretty much a First Amendment absolutist, and while I’m considerably less enthusiastic about the Second, I do believe it protects private ownership of firearms. I’m just pointing out that their *placement * in the list of Amendments isn’t as significant as you think it is.

What does the Congress’ power (Article I, Section 8, clause 16) to organize, arm, and discipline the militia entail? Does it, in your views, give Congress the power to require training as a prerequisite for militia membership?

What commanders does the unorganized militia serve under? Article I Section 8, backed by The Federalist #46, specifies that state governments have the sole authority to appoint officers to the militia. Who and where are these officers?

Max, if you want to argue that the order of the amendments is important, I think you’re going to have a hard time explaining why the 9th Amendment isn’t first, or why the 3rd Amendment beats out the 4th or 5th (or most of the others, for that matter).

MaxTorque said:

Yeah I would argue about it… if thats the intention of the people that ratified it, why didn’t they ratify it? Obviously, they changed the base intention somehow.

Look up. WAAAAAY up. Freedom, in your duly permissable post, I want to touch on one thing… The argument is good and it does help to test the meaning by changing the context a bit.

…or some such device.

I don’t doubt that the intention of the amendment is for the regular, day to day Joe Q Public to keep and bear firearms, see? I do maintain that it is with the understanding of the necessity of it, which is for protection against outside / internal tyranny, so we’re all in agreement here. Now, since when are the US military, National Guard, or policing forces unable to provide the avenues for internal / external threats?

Freedom, you quoted above:

So by reading this, every able-bodied male is in the militia. With provisions, sure. And tell me, this is well-regulated? For God’s sake, its defined as (b).(2) the unorganized militia!!

Slythe’s point is my own. Convince me that every gun-owner is part of the well-regulated militia (and if its unorganized it’s gonna need some regulating, ie. governmental laws) and you’ll have a canadian convert.

Regards,

Jai Pey

Jai Pey: “And tell me, this is well-regulated? For God’s sake, its defined as (b).(2) the unorganized militia!!

The problem I think you’re going to run into is that the kind of “regulation” you are probably thinking about makes “militias” look more and more like “standing armies”, which is precisely the opposite of the point involved. Here’s a quote from the Virginia Declaration of Rights, written before the Bill of Rights:

It is still somewhat irrelevent, however. The only way that I can read the second amendment is that the founders legislated a fact (i.e. according to our Constitution, a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state), and also guaranteed a right which tends to support that fact. We don’t have gun ownership because we need a militia, we can have a militia because of gun ownership rights. At least, that’s how I read it. Also remember that the Constitution is merely being explicit about the recognition of certain pre-existing rights, it is not granting rights. Take note of the ninth amendment:

I think I pretty much agree with Cecil on this one. If gun control advocates want to make their case and get an amendment passed which will allow them to pass laws which “infringe” on the right to keep and bear arms then there is a process in place for that sort of thing.