Bear arms and militias

In this classic column [(What"]http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_123.html](What]( [url="http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_123.html) does “the right to bear arms” really mean?), Cecil attempts to clarify the correct interpretation of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. I’m in favor of a literal interpretation of that document myself, but I’m not too happy with how many people have guns.

Building from Cecil’s reading of the amendment, how does this sound: In order to legally own a firearm, you must be a member of a well-regulated militia. This means you must serve your community as a member of the armed forces (including the National Guard), or you must be a police officer (including the various forms of G-men, and maybe extending to other services, such as bodyguard).

Would that satisfy the amendment and the NRA?

Let the controversy commence.

And I’m usually so careful about my UBB codes. Dagnabbit!

(What does “the right to bear arms” really mean?)


“If you prick me, do I not…leak?” --Lt. Commander Data

Did you read Cecil’s column? Are you suggesting that we all give a wink and a nod and pretend that the amendment doesn’t say what it really says? Cecil pretty well covered what it really says, so if you’re disputing this, you’ll need to bolster your case with some more facts.

If you’re saying that you don’t like gun ownership and you want to modify the constitution, then the moderator needs to move this to Great Debates.

CurtC, you will notice that Cecil Adams’ opinion (as stated in his column) was

Would “requiring gun owners to be in a militia” contradict that statement?

CurtC, what makes you think Saltire didn’t read the column? Are you just mad that Saltire doesn’t agree with you?

As I see it, the OP is asking about the significance of the well-regulated militia. Adams didn’t define militia in detail in his column. Clearly, the concept of militia is integral to the Second Amendment, and no amount of talking about the last bit of that Amendment is going to kill curiosity about the first part.

The Federalist papers define the militia as the entire body of armed, free citizens not including professional soldiers. The OP is asking if this can be interpreted as being limited to police, national guard, bodyguards, and maybe some other things. I’d say it can’t. I would also say, however, that Congress Article I, Section 8, Clause 16 powers allow for Federally-imposed training mandates, records of who belongs to the militia, and other regulations, so long as those regulations don’t categorically ban the citizenry from any firearm.

We have endlessly debated this issue over in GD (use the search engine to look up the threads - I personally started two such threads about 5 months ago).

No one will ever agree on the meaning of that amendment. If all it said was: “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”, there would be little discussion, though I suppose some would attempt to distinguish “the people” from “a person”. It’s that language about militias that screws it all up, by making it hard to know precisely what the founding fathers were actually thinking.

I am going to chide Cecil on one aspect of his answer, though. In the initial answer, Cecil asserts that virtually every other right contained in the first 8 amendments has become a protection against state action as well as federal action. While this is true, it should be noted that there are other rights in the Bill of Rights that have NOT been ‘selectively incorporated’ into the Fourteenth Amendment’s ban on denial of life, liberty and property without due process. Indeed, the process of ‘selective incorporation’ was adopted by the court specifically because it rejected the assertion that the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment should be read to have totally incorporated all of the Bill of Rights (see for an example of the debate on this subject Adamson v. California, 332 U.S. 46 (1947). Therefore, in looking at whether any ‘right’ should be enforced against the states by individuals, one has to look NOT at whether it exists against the federal government, but whether it has a good reason to be enforced against the states.

The Supreme Court has declined specifically to apply the Second Amendment to the states (United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542, 553 (1876)). It has also refused to apply the Fifth Amendment’s requirement of grand jury indictments and the Seventh Amendment’s guarantee of a jury trial in civil cases. In each case, the rationale is simple: the Court declines to accept the proposal that these rights are fundamental to the American system of law; that is, they are not “implicit in the concept of ordered liberty” (Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319, 325 (1937)). [Note: yes, I know that the “fundamental to American justice” language is from later cases than the “ordered liberty” language; this is a semantics debate only in my humble opinion, used to get around arguments by conservative justices that certain rights aren’t necessary to have a democracy that works]

In addressing application of the Second Amendment to the states, then, one should be looking to see if there is a reason why it is fundamental to our system of government that the states should have to abide by the same restrictions as the federal government does. One could, of course, simply assert tha the federal government currently has essentially NO limit, based on recent regulations, but one must accept that, at a minimum, the federal government can’t simply ban gun ownership. Currently, the states can. So, should the states be able to do so? Or is the right to own a gun something that not even states should be able to infringe?

In addressing this issue, one must go back to the militia language, and debate whether the Amendment is intended to protect individuals or sub-units of the federation. But Cecil’s assertion that the issue should be open and shut based on the incorporation of freedom of speech, etc. into the Fourteenth Amendment is quite absurd, given the actual reasoning on ‘selective incorporation’.

Arnold wrote:

From what I gather from Cecil’s column, he says that requiring gun owners to be in a militia would make a shambles of our Second Amendment rights. Cecil’s not equivocal here - he clearly makes the point that the Second Amendment says that individual citizens have the right to own guns without a requirement that they be in a formal militia. In the statement you quote, I think he’s saying that the government can regulate a militia, but not to the point of denying them gun ownership.

Gosh, and here I was going to laud Cecil for one of the most concise arguements I had ever read pertaining to the second amendment, and now another debate on what HE wrote. sigh oh well…


When things get really weird, the weird turn pro. H.S. Thompson

CurtC

“Formal militia” is your verbage.
Adams says if government has the right to regulate a militia, it has the right to regulate the individuals in it. I don’t think he’s trying to be equivocal here, it just seems like he didn’t feel the need to define militia.

The government doesn’t require all gun owners to be part of the militia, the definition of “militia” does.

What if it said “Each state shall have the right to conscript a well-regulated militia for its defense and that of the federal government.” That might also eliminate a lot of discussion. :wink:

Cool. This is the first thread I’ve started that had any real debate in it. That’s what I was looking for.

Now let me throw out my views without being a devil’s advocate. I believe the Constitution should be interpreted as written where possible. So people should be able to keep and bear arms. But this comes with responsibilty.

The people that keep and bear arms under this amendment should be willing to form a militia for their state. As the population is much larger than it was in the framer’s time and all social issues are more complex, it is no longer feasible to form these militias completely ad hoc.

Thus, it should be a reasonable requirement to ask each gun owner to register themselves as a potential militia member and to join in some sort of training. At the very least, they should be trained in the safe use of the arms they choose to keep and bear.

If they don’t want to register and take the training, they have decided not to be a member of a well-regulated militia. Therefore, they are not protected under the amendment. They cannot keep and bear arms.

This would not be a major hardship for today’s legal gun owners. It would allow limitation to the rampant gun ownership among criminals, since those not registered that had guns would be criminals by that act.

OK, so I still got a little devil’s advocate there. But I do think that mandatory gun registration is constitutional and that a safety course should be a requirement for the permit.

On another note, don’t many state constitutions include some sort of clause implying that they hold the state to be bound by the national constitution? Been a long time, but I think I remember that from a Washington state government class in high school. Maybe it’s just the later states to be admitted that did that.

Let the controversy continue.

OK, you did at least say “maybe extending to other services, such as bodyguard.” It bugged me that you didn’t seem to think private detectives should be allowed guns. Yeah, let the department cops have guns, but the private cops and skip tracers have to manage with billy clubs! Sure, that’ll work! : :rolleyes::

Remember, if anybody has the legal right to own guns, then that person has the opportunity to take his legally owned guns and use them in a crime, flee across state lines carrying them, and so forth. If the cops have guns, then non-cops need them, too. I see no problem with banning a type of weapons as a class, though.

Yeah, yeah, skip tracers–bounty hunters–are officers of the court. I suppose (having little direct knowledge) that other duties of a private detective may put him in that position as well. But I think the point needs to be made–officers of a police department are not the only “cop”-type people out there.

Are there corrupt private cops? Yes. There are corrupt police departments, too.

OK, I’m ranting.


[somewhat obscure joke]
Oh, wait! “Right to Bear Arms”! That means US citizens can be armigers, right? OK, where do I register my device? :slight_smile:
[/somewhat obscure joke]

Wow. My first post. Whoo-hoo.

Anyway, back to what started this thread, I don’t think that it would stay true to the founders’ intent to say that the only way you can own a firearm is if you were a member of a well-regulated militia. As Cecil says, you have to remember that these guys were writing this a few years after beating one of the greatest militaries in the world largely through the use of guns owned by private citizens. All the “well-regulated militias” you mentioned in the OP are sanctioned by the government. The framers were well aware of the ability of the government to overstep its bounds, and also aware of the necessity for revolutions (or at least what they viewed as a necessity). I find it incredibly hard to believe that they would require that the only people who own guns be employees of the government.

Well, the framers meant something by the “well-regulated militia” part. I think it basically was that just any group of gun nuts didn’t qualify. They left it up to Congress and the Courts to figure out which ones were well-regulated.

I think, in the present milieu, mandatory registration and training are the best way to control the not-so-well-regulated gun owners.

Many gun people say that that would not control the guns that weren’t registered or the people that use them. But it does allow immediate arrest and punishment when such people are caught. Now, these criminals need to be caught threatening someone or carrying a concealed weapon before they can be busted (in some jurisdictions).

I think the amendment is written the way it is to make it clear that the right to bear arms is intended to serve society. When it harms society, the amendment offers little protection to the miscreant.

As if we don’t have enough to debate, I’m gonna toss out another idea:

“keep and bear” - not just the ability to own guns but the ownership of guns for the purpose of being in a “well regulated militia”
(stepping away while the angry hordes descend…) :wink:

Sorry to barge in un-announced like this, but I had to get my 2 cents in here - It is not enough to protect the militia; the right of private citizens to own and use guns (in any legal fashion they choose) is essential. The first, and foremost reason in my mind is to protect one self. The most dangerous government is one that disarms the citizenry. Look at history and you will see many examples (recently in the Soviet Union, Germany, China, etc). Do not think for a moment that we are in any way exempt from government persecution - just because we are supposedly a democracy does not mean the government is treating everyone with respect. There is entirely too much power with Federal and State government already, and I don’t see them getting any smaller.

It is not enough to say this is a free country - we must preserve our freedom, and insist that government only exersise those powers expressly granted by the constitution.

Those who are in a hurry to register - there is no provision for this, in the second amandment or anywhere else. There is no reason for this type of information to exist unless someone plans to act on it. How would they do that anyway? What would they do? Look for a defendant in a criminal investigation based on gun registration? Hhhmmm, does not sound attractive. Most “criminals” don’t register anything. A well organized militia is not the answser - we frown on organized militia today, and call them extremists. The answer is an individuak capable of defending him/her self.
Again, sorry to barge in…I normally have a much lighter tone.

sili

“Saltair”: all that talk about “reasonable” registration & training go out when you let govt decide what is reasonable. In CA, they is a concealed weapons permit. Each program is administered by the county Sheriff. Each Sheriff/Bd of supes, has put their own spin on “reasonable” varieing from $1000 registration fees, to $35. And sometimes only celebrities and or political freinds getting permits.

The power to regulate is the power to destroy.

Does that mean there should be no regulation of anything, anywhere, EVER?


Sig Alert!

Hi, jab1! Where have you been hiding?

I was tempted to raise your argument itself, but I didn’t really want to go there. But heck, now that you’ve asked it, let me expand on that. Cecil Adams, in his column, says

Why does Cecil Adams interpret the word “arms” to mean only hand-held guns?

Merriam-Webster®’s Collegiate® Dictionary defines the term thus:
Main Entry: 3arm
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English armes (plural) weapons, from Old French, from Latin arma
Date: 13th century
1 a : a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : FIREARM b : a combat branch (as of an army) c : an organized branch of national defense (as the navy)
2 plural a** : the hereditary heraldic devices of a family b : heraldic devices adopted by a government
3 plural a** : active hostilities : WARFARE b : military service

  • up in arms : aroused and ready to undertake hostilities

So should the government be allowed to prohibit the owner of bazookas, tanks, bombs, surface-to-air missiles? Are those not weapons?

tradesilicon
You haven’t barged in. This is a public board and everyone is willing to drop in at the beginning, middle, and end of any debate.

Anyway, this whole thread is getting very interesting. In my experience, pro-gun people typically argue that the armed citizenry is the very definition of a militia, which explains the connection between the two concepts in the Second Amendment. On this thread, most of the pro-gun people seem to be arguing that the militia and the armed citizenry are not related concepts, and that somehow the government has the power to regulate (which some would have us believe is the power to destroy!) the militia, but not individual gun-owners.

It’s just surprising that Straight Dope pro-gunners have a definition of militia that is completely different from, and probably exclusive of, that of their ostensible allies.

The Supreme Court stated in United States v. Miller (1939) that, `The Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense . . . (and) when called for service, these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and the kind in common use at the time.’