Why make jet fighters agile? Why not rear-firing missiles instead?

At some point during the Cold War arms races, did aircraft designers ever say "I’ve got an idea. Instead of making our aircraft turn really quickly so it can get on the tail of the enemy fighters, let’s just make our missiles able to fire backwards and let the enemy get on our tail at their own risk.

So your aircraft would have the missiles able to fire backwards. Great. So the next logical step is to say “why not mount a rear-firing gun to shoot down enemy missiles”.

Well, now the airframe is getting crowded. You need a 360 degree radar to target enemy aircraft behind you, that rear-firing CWIS system is heavy and needs lots of ammo…so make the aircraft bigger. A lot bigger. Give it a crew of 3-5.

Bigger doesn’t mean slower. In fact, I thought some scaling laws are actually favorable to larger aircraft being faster. More internal volume for fuel and engines relative to the drag surface area. So this new aircraft would still be able to intercept targets - it just wouldn’t be able to win a turning battle. It would be sent after enemy aircraft and it would essentially be an air gunboat, firing guns and missiles in all directions once it gets into range. It would have it’s own high end radar to find targets with.

Heck, you could probably use a larger airframe as a medium bomber as well, loading it up with conventional or compact nuclear bombs.

Now, I’m aware that this idea has huge faults. One obvious problem is that an aircraft like this only works if you have faith in your computer controlled guns to not miss, and your missiles to not miss very often, and so on. Historically, the computers of the 50s/60s/70s/80s/90s/even now didn’t have that kind of reliability - the hardware was slow and very heavy, and countermeasures would fool the targeting.

Another problem is it’s expensive. Each aircraft would probably be a factor of 3-5 times larger and heavier and proportionally more fuel and maintenance hungry.

WAG, but maybe the issue having to accelerate a missile from a forward flying aircraft backwards would take considerably more fuel and would probably lead to an overall slower and less maneuverable weapon, thus making hitting a tailing enemy that much more difficult.

Did you just invent tail gunners?

At least when I was in, close range missiles were usually heat seeking. Enemy fighters are hotter on the ass end, and easier to target from behind.

I don’t know about any of that, but I did just run across this video of some of the F-35 features.

In this case they show the missiles shooting forward and turning around. That’s not necessarily as wasteful as it sounds; missiles do have a certain amount of lift and not all of the forward velocity goes to waste. The video is an advertisement for their their “spherical situational awareness system” which I would presume is a necessary component for tracking the enemy.

I’m not an expert, but I don’t think dogfights are really all that common. It’s more important to deal with ground-based defenses and missiles, for which agility would be far more useful than rear-mounted weapons.

Well, even the B-52 originally had a tail-gunner! But it was the only ‘gun’ mounted anywhere on it, and I’m pretty sure they’ve all been long since removed.

The main answer is that by the time jets had replaced props and missiles bullets the range at which air-to-air combat took place had increased by an order of magnitude (if not several). Having a missile turn 180° right after firing is nothing when its literally traveling miles before it engages its target (at multiple mach speeds). This also answers why fighters must be agile to avoid them as well as (most often) ground launched SAMs (amongst other methods).

While we’re at it, I’ve often thought that the big gun in an A-10 should have been mounted the other way. The recoil from the gun is actually comparable to the thrust from the engines, so mounting it the other way would allow for smaller engines and longer sustained fire.

If you design a less maneuverable aircraft that is deadly from the rear, then traditional fighter aircraft will just target it from the side.

Work with me now. Don’t troll me with pendantry. Obviously that means you need to give your missile launching pods 360 degrees of fire.

This. Until the introduction of the AIM-9L in 1977 IR missiles could only perform tail-chase engagements, the IR seeker needed to ‘see’ the heat from the jet exhaust to have something firm enough to lock onto; even with all-aspect IR missiles a tail-chase engagement is more likely to succeed than a head-on engagement.

There’s a whole host of other problems, but that’s a big one.

This was the basic thinking of the Air Force in the 50’s and early 60’s-- that all air-to-air combat would take place at long range with missiles and so they needed to make fighters fast but they needn’t be particularly maneuverable, nor did they need to train pilots in the obsolete art of dogfighting. The experience in Vietnam proved this wrong. The nature of the conflict required targets to be identified which made beyond-visual-range combat impractical and the more maneuverable Migs were capable of evading missiles to close to within gun range. This lead to some hurried revision of designs (such as to re-add guns) and training, and influenced subsequent generations of fighters which are still designed for mostly long-range combat but can get into dogfights if need be.

I think the main answer to the OP is simply that missiles aren’t very maneuverable. Over really short distances, the missile can only make minor course corrections and so it has to be fired pretty much right on target, which is going to be tricky for a pilot to do if it’s pointing backwards.

It sounds like you are trying to create an “air superiority bomber.” The defense systems will make it relatively worse at actually bombing. It’s hard to not see tradeoffs in speed/range or both when you pack the weight of everything into one airframe. You’ve got an interceptor that’s going to have a hard time intercepting. Throwing money at optimizing every systems to minimize the tradeoffs likely makes your 3-5 times more expensive a low ball estimate. Even if it’s true why shouldn’t an enemy go with lower tech AAM platforms that are cheaper than the 3-5 top of the line fighters that would be price comparable. Even a positive kill ratio for the super plane doesn’t matter if it’s overwhelmed early.

The best is the enemy of the good enough.

Several issues:

  1. Modern IR missiles are just about as effective at tracking targets from head on as from behind. That wasn’t true at all in the Viet Nam era. But even back in the 1980s we routinely shot the bad guys once as we’re closing head-on then if they don’t blow up we’d maneuver as required to get pointed at them again. Since the enemy fighter pilot is doing the same thing, that amounts to *almost *a traditional WWII style dogfight *after *the initial exchange of fire head-on.

After the initial pass, it’s not so much that you have to get directly behind the other guy. But you do have to point generally towards him for a few seconds. And given the speeds and angles available, that’s easier to do when you’re going in more or less the same direction. i.e. if he’s traveling ~90 degrees to your path, he’ll flash across your nose from the far left to far right much more quickly than the missile can lock onto or follow. So each pilot’s goal becomes to generate enough spacing between yourself & your target plus enough alignment of flight paths that the apparent angular rate of the other guy is slow enough that your radar and/or missile seeker can obtain & hold lock long enough to get a valid shot off.

  1. Air to air missiles are fast, but they’re not that much faster than the jets themselves. It’s not like a tank and a tank main gun where the tank goes 30 mph and the tank’s shell goes 6000 mph, a 200 to 1 ratio. For fighters it’s more like the jets go 500mph and the missile goes 2500mph, a 5 to 1 ratio. What that means is the range of the missile strongly depends on the relative speed of the shooter and target. Also, most dogfight missiles have very fast burning motors. Rather like a bottle rocket. They accelerate very quickly (1-3 seconds) to their max speed then the motor runs out and they coast the remaining 80% of the way to the target. As they go along, they’re slowing down. The slower they go the less maneuverable they become. Eventually they slow enough to simply fall out of the sky.

Made up numbers: If we imagine two jets cruising along at the same altitude, speed, and direction, with the target in front and the shooter behind, the effective range might be, say, 3 miles. IOW, from 3 miles back, the missile has the oomph to accelerate away from the shooter against a 500mph relative wind, close the distance to the target, and still be going fast enough to maneuver effectively at the end. The bad guy probably doesn’t get away. During the 15 seconds the missile spent covering the 3 miles between them, the two aircraft advanced 2 to 4miles across the ground. So the missile covers 6-7 miles across the ground.

Take the same shot from 4 miles back and the missile is just about out of oomph when it gets there. Even if the target is a lumbering bomber, it could bank gently and evade the missile. Provided they knew it was coming.

Take the same shot from 5 miles back and the missile doesn’t even get there; it runs out of closing speed before it get to the target, then falls stupid to the ground.
Now, take the same shot from head-on. Instead of a 2500mph missile trying to close the unchanging distance to a target against a 500mph headwind, it’s aimed at a target which is getting closer to the launch aircraft at a combined speed of 1000 mph.

Now you might be able to take a shot a 10 miles and still have a strongly maneuverable missile when the target and missile get near each other. And you could take a 15 mile shot against a bomber and still have a weakly maneuverable missile when the range gets to zero.
3. If you had a rearward firing missile, when it first leaves the aircraft it’s flying tail first relative to the air. The motor has to accelerate (decelerate?) the missile from backwards 500 mph to zero to forward 2500 mph relative to the air. And the control fins have to be able to steer both flying ass first and nose first as well as at very slow speeds while making the transition from backwards to forwards flight.

That’s not an easy problem to solve.
4. For a rearward firing missile you’d also need sensors, e.g. radar, that point that way to detect and track incoming aircraft. We’re working on so-called “all aspect” radars and other sensors, but that’s still aways in the future.

All in all, given current tech rearward firing missiles are a bad solution to a problem that doesn’t much need solving.

Fast forward 40 years from today and I can easily imagine something sorta like a WWII P-63 or Mosquito with good speed, better maneuverability than a transport, but less than a dedicated fighter, all-aspect sensors, and directed energy (e.g. laser) weapons in turrets which can fire all-aspect as well.

Given those kinds of sensors and weapons, the need for very high maneuverability falls away. We’re left needing speed, and a big enough aircraft to carry the weapons & sensors and the fuel to power them. Which at least at first will require something a bunch bigger than, say, an F-15 or F-22, much less an F-16 or F-35 sized aircraft.

First, because you didn’t have RFM between 1914 and 1958, so maneuverabilty was an important defensive feature in all types of aircraft. From accounts, a tail gunner wasn’t really that effective on his own. He was better of with buddy planes close together and concentrating their fire. Second, maneuverability today is more of an offensive feature; being able to bring your weapons to bear faster than the other guy.

But, it’s it’s the same discussion when talking about the front and the back. The discussion will be moot if you have missiles that can turn 90 degrees and have a range of 200 miles.

The A-10 is a ground attack airplane. How do you aim and fire a rear-facing gun at ground targets?

The A-10 is retired. Replaced by attack helicopters that can easily reverse direction and deal with ground troops, etc.

You have just described Dale Browns strategic flying battleship, reference flight of the old dog for more information.

What we have works, so nobody is any big rush to make a design change to something thats been in existence since man first flew in powered aircraft. What your thinking of is good for one thing, and thats taking down other aircraft, and not recon, CAS, bomb trucking and anything else that the big iron is expected to do. I dont see congress or any other legislative body in the world authorizing that.

Declan

Not so fast… If I recall correctly, a bill was passed in July that is keeping the A-10 in action, at least for the moment.

It’s still being used by the U.S. for air strikes against ISIS. IMO the current conflict in Iraq/Syria is the perfect battlefield for the A-10.

The idea of loading up a plane with defensive weapons to use firepower instead of agility against enemy fighters isn’t new. During WW2 the concept was tried with a modified B-17 designated the YB-40. Overall, it was considered unsuccessful.