Several posters are discussing the fact that they wish a particular person dead. They don’t want to kill him, but have said that they would immensly enjoy learning of his death, and some have expressed that said death should be slow and full of suffering, commesurate with the suffering they feel he inflicted upon others.
My debate is: Is it wrong/immoral/evil to wish someone dead?
Is it wrong for anyone? Everyone? Serial killers? Personal tormenters? Sexual abusers? An oppresive/muderous leader? Someone you just strongly disagree with? Someone directly or indirectly responsible for the suffering of others?
Again, I am not talking about going out and killing someone; I’m talking about wishing someone were dead or rejoicing in their death.
This passive shit doesn’t mean anything. When did we start thingking that “wishing somebody was dead,” had any kind of value. It’s mental masturbation. It seems stupid in the attitude it engenders as if people are thinking the world will fulfill their moral judgements for them.
What are they saying, really, when they say this?
Let me translate.
“Hi, I’m not willing to get involved or do anything about this situation or this person, and as a matter of fact, I refuse to accept any responsibility whatsoever in any many for it one way or the other, but is some divine providence wishes to go ahead and fix it or strike this person down, they certainly have my permission to do so… Uh no, wait, that’s too strong. Let me just say that I won’t be upset when and if I learn about it after the fact.”
I think it’s bullshit.
The kind of person I would like to be: I think the day I wish somebody was dead is the day I go and do the job.
It strikes me “wrong” to want someone dead, and I mean wrong in the “heard a wrong note of music” sense, not the “I’m making a value judgment” sense.
I think it says more about the person expressing the opinion than it does about the person spoken of. I can see wanting someone justly punished (up to and including being put to death) and I can see wanting someone to be prevented in some way from doing something I think is reprehensible or indefensible But I can’t seem to work up the vindictive emotionalism necessary to personally wish that any particular individual were dead. And I find it is almost always an indication of reason being overcome by emotion when someone wishes that someone else were dead.
This is not directed at anyone in the linked thread, which I have not read.
Anyway, as I said in that thread, I do find wishes of this nature reprehensible. Especially when coupled with a desire to that person suffer, as some of the wishee’s in that thread have. Without going all supernatural here, a wish seems to me to be a plea to a higher power to revoke the laws of nature to suit one’s personal whims. I don’t see the expression of these desires to be too much different than a prayer for the suffering and death of someone.
And we all know what Ambrose Bierce had to say about praying:
Wishing someone dead is a totally different thing than merely saying “I’ll shed no tears when (s)he’s gone.” It implies action, rather than passivity. That, in a nutshell, is what I find so disgusting about it.
But what if wishing for someone death is not a desire to have natural laws suspended, but rather a desire to see Karma (or whatever “spiritual law” you might ascribe to if applicable) manifested?
I suggested in that other thread that wishing death upon someone might be a healthy sign of self-preservation. It might have been the only decent thing I said in that thread, and I stand by it.
Yes, wishing death upon someone is largely emotional. In this case, I think it’s an emotional response to a threat. I will not debate the particulars of whether or not it is a response to an actual threat; perception is sufficient.
If you look at that other thread closely, you will see that there are at least three types of response. There is the “I won’t shed a tear” response, the “I hope the motherf---- dies” response, and the “I hope the bastard suffers and dies” response. Loathing, fear and loathing, and fear, loathing and Las Vegas–I mean anger.
Just a guess on my part, but I wouldn’t be suprised if those responses can also be separated by the degree to which each person has personally suffered as a result of the subject’s actions.
The character being vilified is just that–a character. I doubt anyone who posted those thoughts knows the character personally. We project our anger at that character just as people project anger at television sets or stuffed animals or any other receptacle which will hold our contempt. How full that receptacle becomes is likely a measure of how badly the projector has been hurt.
Ah, now I understand you - and I see your Ambrose Bierce and I’ll raise you (lower you?) a simple, standard cliche: If wishes were horses then beggars would ride. To me, wishing someone dead and enjoying their death are both completely passive activities. I’m not making any prayers to a Higher Power to off Mr. Helms, nor does my pleasure have any karmic influence whatsoever. It just means that I indulge in a certain utterly inconsequential spritual malevolence. Perhaps it’s dishonest - I want my revenge without the grotty bit of actually doing something about it. But that’s really all one can say, I think, without reducing God to a cosmic short-order cook.
But is it inconsequential? Or is it corrosive to the spirit of humanity? Are you struggling to overcome man’s inherent barbaric nature? Or are you succumbing? In any case, there is nothing positive about expressing one’s joy at the prospect of another human suffering a painful death; I manintain that is the essence of inhumanity. Growth and enlightenment can only be gained by fighting against inhumanity.
First, a side note. I subscribe to no spiritual laws, other than those espoused by humanism. I’m a thorough-going atheist; I believe in nothing supernatural.
As you speak of the fulfillment Karma, are you not placing yourself in the position of supreme judge and arbiter? Who are you to say what any man deserves? What gives anyone the right to determine what fulfills another’s karma?
Uncle Beer, I’m surprised that you’re so superstitious. All the wishes in the world cannot affect the material universe one jot. I can wish ill fortune on Senator Helms till the cows come home and it will have no effect on him. As for my soul being corroded eh, maybe. I agree that the worst thing hating someone can do is to make you similar to him, but on the other hand, some people deserve our opprobrium. For example, I wish cancer on ny mom’s second husband, the who abused me [hysically and mentally for years. I hate him with a blazing passion and want him to suffer. I hear he has emphysema these days, so yay!
Similarly, one can wish suffering, or at least a purgatorial pain that can teach empathy, on Senator Helms. Maybe if he spent some time suffering from AIDS, maybe he would know how it feels to be sick and a pariah and change his views accordingly.
In any event, I am not a Christian, and I am not called to love those who hate me and bless those who curse me.
It’s a brief fantasy involving something that you (probably) can’t experience in real life. It’s simply mental indulgence by way of a brief fantasy. I see nothing wrong with it, personally.
I commented on the sentiment in the other thread because I got the impression that the poster generally disapproved of it.
Me? Superstitious? Not at all. I’m not sure what I’ve said to give that impression. I did not say, or even imply, that I believe one’s mere wishes have any effect whatsoever on the material world. What I did say is “I believe in nothing supernatural,” this should be construed to include a human soul. How you get superstition from this, I do not know.
I’m sure I don’t need to post a lengthy discourse on the philosophy of Humanism, but it is, in the most basic terms a system of thought that centers on human beings and their values, capacities, and worth. It emphasizes the dignity of the individual. One central tenet has it that man is a rational being, possessing a capacity for truth and goodness. Wishing someone a painful suffering and death is at odds with Humanism in my opinion. And that way lies evil. Much like Helms himself embraces.
Well, I’ll see the cliches and Bible quotes already here and raise with some Eastwood.
“Hell of a thing, killin’ a man. Take away all he’s got and all he’s ever gonna have.”
“Yeah, well, I guess he had it comin’.”
“We all got it comin’, kid.”
and
“I don’t deserve this… to die like this! I was building a house!”
“Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it.”
“I’ll see you in hell, William Munny!”
“Yeah.”
<blam>
Wishing for pain and suffering and death for one’s enemies is nothing new, and will be with humanity for a very long time. Somewhat depressingly, it’s part of the values of people–though I agree it is certainly far short of our capacity. Inner poison? Yeah, I’d agree with that. Toxin is intoxicating, and people do enjoy it.
I don’t think it leads to evil, though. To suffering, absolutely. Evil is something else.
It seems to me that wishing someone dead is an evil. A small evil, that may be largely harmless. IMHO if this deathwish is extended to more and more people, instead of one or two individuals who have singled themselves out by their vileness, it grows more and more harmful both to the deathwisher and to those s/he interacts with. Extending this wish to a whole group of people makes it particularly toxic. Proselytizing about ones whish for the death of an individual, much less more that one individual, makes it particularly abhorrent.
I guess that what I am trying to say, is that in certain circumstance a wish for someone’s death can be excused. When that wish grows to affect your day-to-day behavior, or when you start trying to convince others to share your wish, then you cross the line from a forgivable lapse of character to something more sinister.
Some guy who was mad at my husband sent him an email telling him he hoped he got a terrible brain cancer and died.
It wasn’t a threat, and it wasn’t a pledge to do it. But I can tell you that it really bothered me. Had he said “I won’t shed any tears when you’re finally dead,” I would have found it rude, but sort of laughable. Or even “The world would be a better place if you weren’t in it” would have made me smirk. Wishing someone would die (and suffer while doing so) feels different to me, even if I cannot articulate it well.
Just a note that, as the person who started the back and forth in the Pit with my comment, I’m reading this one but don’t have much to add beyond what I said in that thread. If anyone wants a GD-style response, go ahead and quote me from there.
I think I’m gonna have to go with Uncle Beer here. Also, if harmful in no other way, I think wishing someone dead would cause harm to the wisher. Not necessarily karmic backlash - but maybe ulcers or stress symptoms. It depends on how much time you spend dwelling on wishing ill on others. And if you really want someone gone, why spend your precious time and energy on keeping them in your frontal lobes like that?
It just isn’t good for humans to cuddle and feed hate; and if you start indulging in allowing yourself to hate, you may find it expressing itself externally. In thinking about it, one becomes accustomed to the idea - then self-justifies it - suddenly the actual physical behaviour is easier and nearer at hand. I’m sorta thinking of Michael Douglas in Falling Down.
Scylla has a good point, too. (Great Bob, I’m afraid to argue with the man after his earlier post. Not to mention the “sheep” thread)
If you’re gonna do it, do it. If you’re not, shut up and quit fantasizing and wishing, and get on with your life.
I personally can’t stomach the thought of wishing someone else, no matter how reprehensible I find them dead. I’m against the death penalty too. You see, I’m MUCH more vindictive than that. I’d wish them a long, healthy life so that they may have time to understand and experience more fully the hatred, intolerance, and suffering they have caused. In Helms’ case, I don’t know how much time he has left, and I really don’t care. I won’t cry when he’s gone. I don’t know the man personally, but I don’t think he’s been living in the same century and culture that the rest of America and the planet earth has, and I pity him for it. But, I have to find something positive about the shit he’s done. He’s been honest about being a racist/sexist/______ pig. That’s something, right? He’s paved the way for intolerance, bigotry, and just in general backwards thinking that has put NC on the map and stirred up folks who would otherwise be complacent to take a good look at what’s going on in government and in segments of American society. That’s got to be a good thing in an age when people actually believe that racism doesn’t exist. [sigh] But I digress. I think that wishing someone would die really is not the right way to go about things. Wish them a long life with nothing to do but to think about what they’ve done and to experience the suffering they have caused others.
