'02 Grand Jeep Cherokee Question.

Factual Questions
21

[QUOTE=Gary T]
I would say unbolted and partially removed, but in the context of the work being done, removed makes sense - it was removed from the item(s) being worked on that it was attached to.

But what I was trying to convey was that in the diagram I was looking at, it appeared that one starter bolt, entering from the front, went through the starter, the plate directly behind the block (can’t think of a proper/better name for this), then threaded into the bellhousing. The other starter bolt, entering from the rear, went through the plate (2-3 mm thick) and threaded into the starter. Only the first bolt had to be removed to separate the tranny from the engine. The plate, with starter still attached to it, could stay in place at the rear of the engine. Only once all the bellhousing-to-block bolts were removed and the tranny withdrawn, nothing was fastening it to the block - it normally would just rest upon the dowel pins (if they stayed in the block). But with a heavy starter hanging on one side, I expect the plate cum starter would tilt and fall off.

The more I think about it, the more I suspect I’ve misinterpreted the drawing and both starter bolts would have to be removed. In which case the dealer was saying they didn’t remove the starter because it didn’t make it to the bench, being left hanging in the vehicle as you described. Picking nits, I would say, but still moot in regards to the OP’s apparent concern.
[/QUOTE]

On British cars that plate is called the end plate. It is usually bolted to the block with a few bolts. Typically at the top of the bellhousing there is a dowel pin or two. Leaving the starter hang does not result in the end plate moving as it is bolted to the block. Based on what you describe I would unbolt the starter, and move it forward about an inch or so, and let the bendix end rest on the end plate and the front be supported by the cable.
enipla No I haven’t, but Gary T nailed it, and its relevence to the tranny repair. The starter is in the same neighborhood, but not really effected by the tranny removal. Starters as a rule are pretty damn robust, and very hard to kill. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of anything the mechanic could do that would kill the starter.

22

[QUOTE=enipla]
I’m still not sure if we will be covered or not. But the excuse Jeep gave us was that the lug nuts where not torqued properly when we had new tires put on it.

They even gave us the numbers that they where torqued at compared to what they where supposed to be. They where within about 3-5 lbs.

But really, WTF? :rolleyes: . How many mechanics check the torque of a lug nut before taking it off?

Unless of course, Jeep KNOWS that there is a problem with the hubs and rotors. Apparently Jeep does. So they have a scape goat.

And how reliable is a torque wrench when measuring the ‘tightness’ (tired of using torque) of a nut when a nut was tightened, drivin on, put through weather and salt and sand and MagChloride and then the hub/rotor failed from heat and warping. Might that change the tightness of the lug nut? Hmmmmm….

It’s bullshit. They have had bad brakes on the front of these vehicles since 1999. They know it and they are doing a big CYA.
[/QUOTE]

Several thing come to mind here.
First off there is no accurate way to measure torque on a fastner that is already tightened.
Secondly, how do we know the torque wrench used at the dealer is accurate? When was the last time it was calibrated?

23

[QUOTE=enipla]
I’m still not sure if we will be covered or not. But the excuse Jeep gave us was that the lug nuts where not torqued properly when we had new tires put on it.
[/quote]

That is possible. Which makes it a plausible accusation to make. However…

…3-5 foot/pounds of lug nut torque does not make a difference in the real world. I’d be shocked if there’s any evidence that tightening those wheels to 5 ft/lbs over specs has any measurable negative effect.

None, because as Rick said, there’s no feasible way to do it.

Actually, I doubt it would. But it’s a moot point since the torque wrench is only useful for measuring the torque applied WHILE tightening. Once the fastener is tightened, you can’t tell anything about the degree of tightness with a torque wrench, whether it was tightened 10 seconds ago or 2 years and 30,000 miles ago.

You got that right. And it’s bullshit in so many ways, it boggles the mind. Sheesh.

24

Thanks again guys. When I was standing at the service desk, these questions didn’t really pop into my head.

My Wife has all the paper work (I’ll get home tonight), and while it may not make any difference, I’m going to raise these questions with the regional manager (just about the brakes).

I wonder if there is a regional service manager.

It’s two bad really. We like the car very much. But at this point, we are always waiting for the other, or next shoe to drop.

I will also tell them that this is one of the reasons I did not buy a Jeep and went with a Nissan instead. And we are changing dealerships for the next repair.

25

We got the claim form for the class action in the mail while I was away.

We will not be eligible. The brake failure had to occur within the 36,000 mile 36 month warrantee. It happened at 55,000 miles.

Fine.

I called the dealership that did the work and asked for the email of the district service manager. I was told that the district manager had recently been transferred, and no such position exists at the moment.

Hmmmmm……

So I talked to a service manager at another Jeep dealership. I told him that it has nothing to do with him or that dealership. He was very nice, I talked to him for about 15 minutes. BUT he could not (against policy) give me the email of the district service manager.

He also agreed that measuring the torque taking off a lug nut is pretty much bullshit.

I don’t like being lied to (about the torque settings). Maybe they where just shining us on.

Up the ladder we go. Maybe, just maybe I can get some satisfaction. I really doubt it, but I want Jeep, or any company to know that they are not always dealing with sheep.

This is the email that I would like to send to SOMBODY with a little oversight and control - In this day and age of communication, I can’t email the ‘boss’. That’s quite a company structure they have there.

At this point, I have nowhere to send it. I’m going to Jeeps home website and look around.

26

I have two addresses from the times my father wrote to DaimlerChrysler – a senior staff agent at what appears to be the main customer center, and a vice president of corporate quality. Both were valid as of December 2003; I can pull those up if you want to try them.

27

Thanks Jeep’s Phoenix. I may take you up on it.

I don’t really expect any compensation for this other than perhaps someone else won’t be put through the same bullshit.

I did talk to another jeep dealership and asked for the regional manager’s email. The service manager at that dealership was sympathetic, but would not give me the email. I could have his phone number, but he said that by calling I would not necessarily get a response. In side speak, he told me that it was not worth my time to call.

So. It seems that in the Diamler/Chysler/Jeep world, the buck stops at the local dealer ship. Quite literally really. There is no way to complain about a certain dealership at the regional level.

I have sent off an email to the main jeep web site. Not expecting much back.

28

The Car Talk website has some handy info on how to contact the bigwigs at car companies to complain. Elsewhere on their site, they have listener recommended garages (both dealer and independent), so you can try to see if there’s not a better place to take yours.

Jeeps can be maintence hogs, but it really sounds like you got shafted with the one you have. If you’re planning (or are forced) to keep the Jeep for any length of time, I suggest that you pick up a copy of The Jeep Owner’s Bible by Moses Ludel. He doesn’t pull any punches as to what can be wrong with certain models and generally has tips to fix the problems so they’re not recurrent.

You know, I’m beginning to think that us car guys need to get together and do a general automotive advice thread.

29

Thanks Tuckerfan. I really don’t work on cars to much any more. They are just getting two specialized, I don’t have a garage at my house, and there is snow on the ground 6 months out of the year.

I guess it would be good to have the book so I can call bullshit when necessary.

I might have been to hard on the dealership. I suppose its just as frustrating to them to have a lemon, and angree customers. Of course they know that the jeeps brakes have problems. Maybe they are so sensitive that a few pounds difference in torque screws them up and that is the excuse they use. Don’t need to measure it.

I made a diary of the things that have gone wrong with the car. Well some of it was required maintenece. I did not include all the oil changes and stuff. I included things that where fixed under warrantee to. It’s still a hassle. It’s pretty stunning.

Also, consider the dealership is 100 miles away. This has at least convinced my Wife to go to a more local dealer ship, 30 miles away. She had been going to the place where she bought the car.

Here we go -

2/02
Recall fix N/C

7/02
Defroster not working N/C

10/03
Engine light N/C

2/04
30,000 Mile service $748(?)*

8/04
36,000 Mile service $260 (?)*
Front brakes turn rotors $214

  • A 30 and a 36 thousand mile service?

9/04
Parking brake won’t engage $75

10/04
Drivers Window won’t go down $460

5/05
Replace rear axle seals N/C
Front Pinion seal N/C
Rear axle seals N/C
Resurface rear rotors N/C
Replace brakes due to leaking axle seals $125
New front rotors and calipers $554

6/05
Power steering pump $866 :eek:

8/05
Looks to be a 60,000 mile fluid change on all running gear $689
Engine light is on (took it back three times for this) $105

9/05
2 Fuel injectors (they finally figured out why the check engine light was on) $487

10/05
30 (!) Electrical repairs. Engine will not crank at times $151
New starter $306
5/06
Diff Fluid replacement $186

11/06
Replace main seal on transmission N/C

1/07
New Starter (again) $553 :mad:
Fuel induction flush (again) $146

$ 5925 in repairs that we have dropped into this 6 year old car.

30

[QUOTE=enipla]
I might have been to hard on the dealership. I suppose its just as frustrating to them to have a lemon, and angree customers. Of course they know that the jeeps brakes have problems. Maybe they are so sensitive that a few pounds difference in torque screws them up and that is the excuse they use. Don’t need to measure it.
[/QUOTE]

I would say you haven’t been hard enough on them. A few ft/lbs difference in torque will not screw them up (a bigger difference could). It’s not that they don’t need to measure it, it’s that they CANNOT measure it. They may or may not have been right about the wheels being overtightened - no one will never know - but by CLAIMING they could determine the tightened torque they are either lying through their teeth or so ridiculously ignorant they shouldn’t be working on cars. So whether they’re dishonest or incompetent, they deserve to be called on the carpet for this egregiously false contention.

31

[QUOTE=Gary T]
I would say you haven’t been hard enough on them. A few ft/lbs difference in torque will not screw them up (a bigger difference could). It’s not that they don’t need to measure it, it’s that they CANNOT measure it. They may or may not have been right about the wheels being overtightened - no one will never know - but by CLAIMING they could determine the tightened torque they are either lying through their teeth or so ridiculously ignorant they shouldn’t be working on cars. So whether they’re dishonest or incompetent, they deserve to be called on the carpet for this egregiously false contention.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks Gary T.

Wouldn’t you be able to measure it with a beam type torque wrench? I know they are not very accurate, but I’m just curious.

32

Just a thought on the second starter failing. If transmission fluid leaking from the front pump/torque converter seal got in to the starters armitures(sp) could that cause a failure?
Sorry to hear about all the problems.

33

Good point.

Hell, when the rear axle seals went, they where covered by the power train warrantee. BUT the gear oil got into the rear brakes which where not covered.

I bitched to them about that at length.

34

Gary T and Rick - Would you mind if I quote you guys? I won’t even use your screen names or any reference to the SDMB.

And it would be great if you could give me a little synopsis of the amount of experience you have.

If you are in anyway uncomfortable with that, no problem at all. I completely understand. You have been great.

35

[QUOTE=enipla]
Wouldn’t you be able to measure it with a beam type torque wrench? I know they are not very accurate, but I’m just curious.
[/QUOTE]

It’s not the type of torque wrench, it’s what you are measuring.

A torque wrench measures the amount of twisting force. Now, while a fastener is being tightened, meaning the fastener is in the process of rotating, that twisting force is proportional to the stretch of the bolt/stud and the clamping force of the bolt/nut. This is called dynamic torque. Once the fastener stops rotating, this is no longer what is being measured. There’s a certain amount of inertia to be overcome before a resting (not currently rotating) fastener starts moving, and the torque measurement of that inertia will be higher than the torque that was applied to get the fastener in that position. This is called static torque. It is always higher than, but not necessarily proportional to, the original tightening torque.

For an example (made-up figures, but the principle is correct), let’s say you torque a lug nut to 85 ft/lbs. Then you reapply force, either to tighten or to loosen that same lug nut. The torque reading will problably exceed 100 ft/lbs before the nut starts rotating at all. That reading will not tell you what the tightening torque had been with any useful degree of precision.

There are ways to measure (or try to measure) how tightly a fastener was torqued, but they generally require expensive specialized equipment and/or tedious specialized processes. It’s not something that’s done in auto repair shops, it’s done in engineering test labs. I find it unbelievable that any dealership mechanic who claims to have determined such a value to within a couple of ft/lbs has any real understanding of the issue.

You’re welcome to quote me, though I can’t claim to be an authority on this topic. I’ve been an auto repair professional since 1973. Contrary to the “grease monkey” stereotype, I have BA in biology, and thus have studied the sciences. I read, have a healthy skepticism (oh, that scientific training!), and like to understand things.

If you’re inclined to do some research on the matter, you may find some more authoritative sources.

Here is one possibility. Check the references. Pertinent excerpt (bolding mine):

*When using a threaded fastener to create a bolted joint to connect multiple components, the clamp load created by the bolted joint is critical. The clamp force created by the bolted joint is directly proportional to the tension in the bolt. One way of indirectly measuring or auditing the clamp force or tension is by measuring the torque value it takes to break the threaded fastener loose.

Typically, a torque reading is obtained with a bending beam or dial indicator-type torque wrench. While this technique is still used today for non-critical applications, the readings obtained are known to have little or no correlation with the actual tension developed by the installation torque. Other than the fact that, in general, higher values of breakaway torque indicate that higher installation torque may have been applied, the breakaway torque measurement cannot be relied upon to verify fastener tension.*