My Wifes ’02 Grand Jeep with 90,000 miles on it is being a bit of a lemon.
But that’s not the question.
At 45,000 miles, the starter was replaced (one of many expensive fixes).
Now, the Jeep dealership says it’s gone bad again. Unfortunately, this is a different Dealership then did the first one (logistics of towing and time). It is past the warrantee of the first replaced starter.
So, in addition to all the other crap that has gone wrong with this car, about two months ago the seal on the transmission tourqe converter went bad.
My question - is it likely that they would have had to take off the starter to replace the seal on the tourqe converter? Maybe to get at bolts, or the fly-wheel set up?
It seems really, really weird that the starter has gone bad AGAIN. Even Jeep admits that.
They wouldn’t need to take the starter off to get to the torque converter???right? The starter is in the front of the engine, and the torque converter is underneath and in the back… I think you need to remove the air intake system, throttle cable assemblies, fuel rails, and wiring harness etc…etc… but not the starter… And yes it is very rare for a starter to go out twice in 50k miles.
However, with some additional thought there are things that affect the starter that could have contributed to it going bad…Loose belts, starter solenoid all could contribute.
Unless your Jeep is of some unusal design that I have never seen the starter has to be unbolted in order to get the transmission out, so that the seal behind the torque converter can be accessed.
The transmission bolts to the back of the engine. the starter sticks into this area, so that when you hit the key the starter drive engages the ring gear located around the outside of the flexplate. The flex plate is bolted to the back of the crankshaft, and the torque converter is bolted to the flexplate.
It is possible that one or the other of the shops got the starter installed incorrectly and that is what caused the repeat failure.
I find two starters in the first 90K to almost mindboggling. Sarters almost never go bad.
I have never seen a starter on the front of an engine, and I can’t see how a loose belt could cause a starter failure.
On most designs the starter is attached to the engine block or transmission bellhousing, right where the two meet, with bolts oriented horizontally. It is necessary to remove the starter to separate the tranny from the engine. This is the design your Jeep uses, so yes, they removed the starter.
But so what? The implication seems to be that the starter was compromised by being removed and replaced. I’d like to know how. This process puts no strain on the starter. About the only way to damage it during removal/replacement is to drop it on the floor, in which case it wouldn’t work for two months and then fail from said damage. And this line of thinking certainly wouldn’t explain the failure of the first one.
45,000 miles/2-3 years is shorter than the typical lifespan for a starter, though not necessarily egregiously so. It raises questions about the quality control at Jeep. I’d be asking about crappy parts, rather than any sort of mishandling.
On a tangential note, many GM designs have starters that mount to the engine block with bolts oriented vertically, such that the starters do not have to be removed to separate the tranny from the engine.
Bolding mine. I didn’t respond very fast to this because I thought it may be a ‘Whoosh’. And I had some things to do. I’m a 100 mountain miles away from my Wife right now, and though it’s been a few years since I’ve replaced a starter on a V8. I questioned myself. I questioned this answer to a question asked in GQ.
That’s what I thought Rick. The starter on every V8 I have ever seen is near the rear of the engine block. And tied into the bell housing for the trany. It has to turn the flywheel between the engine and trany.
The JEEP DEALERSHIP (where we bought the car) that replaced the starter motor at 45,000 miles, also did the trany work 12,000 miles ago. They told my wife that they did not have to pull the starter to replace the main seal on the tourqe converter.
They also told my wife that this following work was normal maintenance.
Remember this is an ’02 Grand Jeep purchased new with 90,000 highway miles on it.
Their statement, to my Wife is this is just normal maintenance.
I’ve been there at a few of these fixes, and have expressed my displeasure. I can’t be there all the time and I DON’T like it that these guys would tell my Wife that this was normal. The last time Both my Wife and I where there I asked the technichine to pull the file on this car and look through it. It’s an inch thick.
The shuttle driver gave my Wife a flower because he understood how much of a pain in the ass this was becoming.
Well. Before I go to the Pit about this I want to thank everyone for there input. I am very sorry now that we went with a Jeep, but it was the best choice for us at the time.
My Nissans have always been vehicles that just don’t stop. I have a new Pathfinder now.
As a side note… The Jeep did not start when I was 100 miles away. My Wife took care of it she did. But it took two tow trucks to get the car moved.
A flat bed can’t get up our driveway. So they called in another regular 4x4 tow truck just to jump start her car.
The instructions in my info list “remove starter” for this operation. I will concede that it appears it would be possible to pull the tranny after removing one of the two starter bolts (starter to bellhousing), leaving the other one (engine rear plate to starter) and the starter in place if I’m interpreting the drawing correctly. But I would expect the weight of the starter to cock the plate and make it harder to deal with than just removing the starter.
None of that is maintenance. Those are all repairs. Some of them would be considered normal wear and tear items by 90,000 miles, but most of them really aren’t (or shouldn’t be).
I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with this. Jeeps don’t rate all that well in reliability compared to lots of other makes, but yours strikes me as particularly bad in that area. I’m afraid your assessment of “lemon” rings true.
Sadly enough, in my experience, that is pretty much normal for a WJ ('99 - '04)…particularly the brake rotors, which typically first wore out around 15,000 miles. While I’m not surprised to read about your other repairs, this shouldn’t be happening. I’m not clear on lemon laws; will they still apply if there have been legal settlements and TSBs, as is the case with the brake rotors?
What explanations have you personally gotten from the dealership? I can recall a few times where my father and I got different explanations of the problem/repair within minutes of each other from the same person. (I’m a female, by the way.)
I’m certainly not making excuses for your Jeep; while I drive a Grand Cherokee myself ('97), I’ve been less than impressed with the recent offerings in that area (both in looks and quality). Mine has been comparitively trouble-free – wheel bearings that wore out at 30,000 miles, a failed intake manifold gasket at 55,000, and a failed water pump at 86,000.
Thanks Gary T. Seems a bit over the top for me as well, and has nothing to do with ‘normal maintenance’. And as I’m away from home right now, I’m sure I’ve missed some other pretty major repairs that we have had to do (can’t get to the paperwork is all, the car is well taken care of).
Once, when my Wife asked why everything was costing so much, the service rep told her that every time you brought a GRAND Jeep Cherokee in for work, it was gonna cost you a GRAND.
Yea. I had an ’84 CJ7. Fun. I’ve spent a lot of time in FJ40’s. The CJ turned out to be a pain in the ass. Rear axle problems. My dog hated it. Smart dog.
The CJ had a hell of a good engine. 235ci (I think) straight 6. Five speed. Pretty sturdy all in all but the rear axle kept failing at the hubs.
I think that some of the earlier FJ’s had the same engine. Argent Towers may know.
Enipla….
Away from home…… But close enough to get some help from the Dope.
It could be a terminology issue here.
You have to unbolt it for sure, but you may not have to carry it over and set it on the bench. I have done numerous trans removals where I unbolted the starter and just pushed it forward (still attached to the cables) so I could do what ever it was I was trying to do.
So did I remove the starter? Did I pull the starter? Or did I just unbolt it?
I would say unbolted and partially removed, but in the context of the work being done, removed makes sense - it was removed from the item(s) being worked on that it was attached to.
But what I was trying to convey was that in the diagram I was looking at, it appeared that one starter bolt, entering from the front, went through the starter, the plate directly behind the block (can’t think of a proper/better name for this), then threaded into the bellhousing. The other starter bolt, entering from the rear, went through the plate (2-3 mm thick) and threaded into the starter. Only the first bolt had to be removed to separate the tranny from the engine. The plate, with starter still attached to it, could stay in place at the rear of the engine. Only once all the bellhousing-to-block bolts were removed and the tranny withdrawn, nothing was fastening it to the block - it normally would just rest upon the dowel pins (if they stayed in the block). But with a heavy starter hanging on one side, I expect the plate cum starter would tilt and fall off.
The more I think about it, the more I suspect I’ve misinterpreted the drawing and both starter bolts would have to be removed. In which case the dealer was saying they didn’t remove the starter because it didn’t make it to the bench, being left hanging in the vehicle as you described. Picking nits, I would say, but still moot in regards to the OP’s apparent concern.
Yea. I’m just a bit pissed off that they told my Wife this was normal. And that the starter was in no way related to the trany fix. Eh… I suppose that Jeep may have some sort of design where the starter does not need to be touched to do a trany removal. But I really, really doubt it.
FYI - there is a class action lawsuit that covers repair costs due to defective brakes and rotors. Website
If you still have the reciepts from the rotor repairs you can get them reimbursed.
enipla, sorry to hear about all your issues, but maybe you can get some money back. Our JGC has been pretty good (excepts for the rotor issue shocks which repeatedly go out). Keep the faith :).
Hey, thanks. We fit all the requirements for this. It appears that an agrement was reached.
Not sure if that means the Plaintifs won or not. Sure sounds like it. I need to spend some more time on the site and download the claim form, and find out when the work was done.
I’m not sure if the vehicle was under warranty at the time. We will fill out and submit the form in any case.
No problem. If I remember correctly the cut-off time for submitting as part of the class action is coming up shortly (March 2007, I think), just so you know.
The deadline is April 30th, 2007. I love the Dope, my friend had this exact problem and I’m forwarding her the link. I think she spent something like $1200 fixing that shit.
I’m still not sure if we will be covered or not. But the excuse Jeep gave us was that the lug nuts where not torqued properly when we had new tires put on it.
They even gave us the numbers that they where torqued at compared to what they where supposed to be. They where within about 3-5 lbs.
But really, WTF? :rolleyes: . How many mechanics check the torque of a lug nut before taking it off?
Unless of course, Jeep KNOWS that there is a problem with the hubs and rotors. Apparently Jeep does. So they have a scape goat.
And how reliable is a torque wrench when measuring the ‘tightness’ (tired of using torque) of a nut when a nut was tightened, drivin on, put through weather and salt and sand and MagChloride and then the hub/rotor failed from heat and warping. Might that change the tightness of the lug nut? Hmmmmm….
It’s bullshit. They have had bad brakes on the front of these vehicles since 1999. They know it and they are doing a big CYA.
