Yesterday the Jeep Commander died at a stop light. No dummy lights, no noises, no rough idle just died. This Jeep had a new starter put in about six weeks ago. Now for the symptoms:
Click, click. Just like a bad starter and won’t start.
Positive battery cable super hot. Like too hot to hold and melting the electrical tape/rubber hot.
Faint smell of burning (I would say electronic/wiring burning smell).
On a couple of times of trying to turn it over, wisps of smoke from the back of the engine. Remember on a Commander the starter is set pretty far back.
According to the garage they took the belt off and the engine is seized. Oil is about 1.5 quarts low but I just filled it up with synthoil about six weeks ago.
I just can’t buy that the engine seized. Except for stopping at the light and the oil being abnormally low it seems that the new starter is fried OR there is a short in the positive cable. And I repeat that no symptoms before stopping at the light.
What do y’all think? Engine seized or shop full of shit?
And we are going to have it towed for a second opinion tomorrow but I want to know if I’m blowing sunshine up my own ass.
It sounds entirely plausible to me. You’re driving current to the starter motor and it’s trying to do its job but is faced with an immovable flywheel, which causes the positive lead to heat up.
Think of turning the switch on to a ceiling fan, for example, and holding the blades stationary. The wiring to the fan and the motor (field?) coils are gonna get pretty toasty fast.
Sound like a locked up engine. Then it could be a liquid lock also.
Pull the sparking plugs and try turning it over.
Of course you should be able to turn it over by hand also especially with the plugs removed.
Then as a possibility, remove the starter and try turning it over by hand. A starter can lock up too.
It’s been a long time since I’ve tried to crank a seized engine so my memory’s a little fuzzy. I don’t remember the battery cables getting hot, but then again I wouldn’t be holding the key in the start position longer than it took to hear a hearty clank/click, and wouldn’t do that but a few times before testing something.
It seems odd the engine would seize with no signs or warnings beforehand. A quart or two low on oil wouldn’t normally do it.
I have run across engines that would get super stiff to turn when hot, then act normal when cooled down. This is a sign of significant internal wear and an overhaul or replacement being needed soon.
I wonder why they took the belt off. It’s certainly not necessary in checking for a seized engine.
A stalled starter (trying to turn a locked engine) can easily draw 500 amps. Plus, the high current cable is unfused, so it to draw that current until something stops it.
No? We always did, just to make sure it wasn’t a seized accessory (like the A/C compressor.)
They are quoting close to $8000 for a new engine. We are definitely going to take it for a second opinion. I just cannot believe it seized with no warning and no sound and even now won’t make a clunk-clunk sound when cranking. I mean I guess it is theoretically possible but considering our experience at this shop the last time and the lacksadasical attitude they had to even get the car into the bay, I just don’t trust their diagnostic skills. They are careless and sloppy. I bet they didn’t even take the spark plugs out to test to see if it is seized.
Oil helps to cool the engine. If it was missing almost half its oil, it could have overheated.
But how old is the car? Some cars have fail-safes, where the computer shuts down the car if something is wrong, like half the oil being gone, or the starter drawing too much current, and it won’t start again until someone tells the computer that the problem has been fixed (and it has to be fixed). You might have to go to a dealer for this. It really depends on the age of the car. We have a 20-year-old car with fail-safes that can be turned back on by any mechanic, but when something (missing gas cap) caused our other car to shut down when it was only four years old, we had to go to a dealer. Fortunately, the fail-safe for the missing gas cap still allowed the car to operate, it just caused the check-engine light to flash, the cruise control to flash and not operate, and the system alarm to beep. It was scary, and we were afraid to drive it until we’d gotten the code off the flashing light, and given it to the dealer over the phone.
That’s what I was thinking. There wouldn’t be any warning, the valve would simply, like, break off and get sucked into the cylinder, and a fraction of a 10th of a second later it’s getting wedged between the piston and the head. Doesn’t seem likely, but it would be instantaneous.
2006 Jeep Commander. 140,000 so I still think timing belt. So how do I tell the difference between broken timing belt, seized engine and stuck valve? Assuming broken timing belt or valve, would anything be irreparable beyond fixing the problem?
which engine do you have? The 3.7 and 4.7 OHC engines have timing chains, and the 5.7 is a pushrod engine with a single chain between cam and crankshaft.
if the valve timing went off and the piston struck a valve or a valve dropped, usually there’s a lot of collateral damage with the piston, head, and cylinder wall.
edit: if it’s the 5.7 (Hemi) there were a couple of years where that engine was known for dropping valve seats into the cylinder.
it’s going to take a long time for Chrysler to shake off the damage Daimler did to them.
5.7 HEMI. I thought they were non-interference engines so I’m really hoping a bad valve or broken timing [del]belt[/del] chain didn’t cause too much damage.
The engine would still crank if the timing belt were broken, although with a lot of newer engines that’s asking for trouble as they have valve/piston overlap and you would stand a good chance of driving one into the other as noted above.
A siezed engine will simply not turn over, that’s what seized means and a valve head broken off into the cylinder wall may cause a seize.
A valve simply stuck open or closed would not cause the engine to stop turning but stuck open will likely result in it being broken off for reasons noted above.
If the valve is snapped off and driven into the cylinder walls you are probably looking at a complete rebuild, which may be more expensive in labour than buying a new engine. I would definitely get a second opinion if you are suspicious of the garage you are taking it to, and check with the dealer to see if there are anytsb’s (technical service bulletins) or recalls about this .
If it were a broken timing belt the bottom end of your engine would turn over just fine but the top end (valves, lifters. cam) would not.
Since your engine does not turn over it is not as simple as the timing belt.
The engine in your Jeep is not an interference engine. If it were an interference engine the valve train could get all tangled up with the pistons and cause havoc when the timing belt breaks and seize the engine. This would be a rather noisy and obvious event.
The starter in your engine engages the flywheel and spins the bottom end, crankshaft and pistons. The timing belt turns over the top part of the engine. A broken timing belt in a non-interference engine would not seize the engine up. It would be a fairly easy repair to replace the belt and line everything back up.
Your engine is seized. Unknown cause. But it isn’t the timing belt.
As noted above by Gbro you could have a cracked head or other leak that has allowed fluid to fill up a cylinder, a condition called hydro-lock. Since liquid doesn’t compress this will seize the engine until the liquid is removed. If you pull the spark plugs out and the engine turns over and squirts fluid out, that is the problem.
What size engine? Did you follow the manufacturers recommended maintenance schedule?
Used engines are available from the local bone yard or online (plus shipping).
Auto shop labor charges are kinda high unless you can’t do the work yourself. Then they’re just right. For starters, you’ll need a hoist, tools, a diagnostic tester, and a friend who knows what they’re doing.
Anyone know how many book labor hours it would take a shop to swap out a Jeep Commander engine? 8hrs to 10hrs for a complete engine? I’m only guessing.
And when does it become throwing good money after bad? Does it make sense to pay $8000 to replace an engine on a 10-year-old vehicle with 140,000 miles?