1. Canadian nukes? 2. US reaction?

Great Debates
41

Its just a bit hard to take serious anyone who equates the invasion of Iraq with the US invading Canada…ya know?

Which is it? That Iran has nukes (and as an aside…really? Do you know something the rest of us don’t?) or because we are bogged down in Iraq? I actually agree with the second part of your statement here…I think it WAS part of the orignial plan to be in a position to threaten Iran and Syria from a secure base in Iraq (I don’t think we necessarily planned to invade). Since Iraq didn’t quite work out as expected though we were never able to bring that part off.

Still…its kind of a long leap from the US invading an Iraq to the US invading a Canada. I don’t really see how our past actions could lead any sane person to presuppose the US would turn on an ally and a fellow democracy…not unless things in the US change so radically that the nation isn’t even recognizable anymore. You can wave your hands all you like about Bush, but it ain’t happened yet and I see no real indications that we are headed in that direction.

-XT

42

In both cases, we are invading a country that is no threat to us.

Because we are bogged down; that’s why I said “except”.

43

:stuck_out_tongue: Sure Der Trihs. Iraq is exactly the same as Canada…just spelled differently, right?

Ah, I see…you were talking about NK. That wasn’t clear. So…we haven’t invaded NK because they have nukes (we are bullies after all), and we haven’t invaded Iran (and presumably a host of other nations) because we are bogged down in Iraq. But, take said bogging away and we are going to go nuts and invade…Canada. Yes, it makes perfect sense now. Of course, if I may presume to take this facinating scenerio a step further: Wouldn’t Canada be kind of far down the list? I assume that, once we are bog free in Iraq we will invade Iran/Syria and perhaps Saudi Arabia next…right? After that, wouldn’t we go for, say, France and the Dutch? Maybe knock off some South/Central American nations (Venezuela say) where there is oil…perhaps Mexico.

Tell you what…when we do some of that first then come back and perhaps an invasion of Canada will be a bit more plausable…

:wink:

-XT

44

xtisme, I said that we would invade Canada if it profited us, not that we will.

45

Canada has tons of oil, they are our biggest source of foreign oil. They could blow Iraq out of the water as far as vassal states go with all their pre-existing infrastructure. Plus if we invaded there’d be no looting as Canada already has an efficient police force. And we wouldn’t need to build any infrastructure as it already exists. But I see no war.

Do serious people think the US government is going to invade a developed liberal democracy if they can make some money off of it?
Iraq - Lost a pre-existing war they started. In 1990 Iraq started a war and ignored numerous resolutions by the UN telling them to leave Kuwait peacefully ‘or else’. Iraq lost the war, signed a cease fire and repeadly broke the cease fire over the next 12 years until the war restarted. Had one of the worst governments on the planet, intentionally starved hundreds of thousands of its own citizens because they knew that the world would blame America (and not Hussein) for their deaths, and was consistenly in the ‘worst of the worst’ category for human/civil/policital rights when rated by Freedom house, scoring as among one of the seven most oppressive & evil governments out of the 200-ish on earth.

Canada - Liberal democracy. Michael J Fox was born there. Canada, when you rearrange the letters spells “a can ad”.
I can’t figure out why so many French and Canadians are so quick to condemn the US as ‘evil’ for invading Iraq in 2003 when their countries supported the 1991 Gulf war (I know you’re not from either but I’m making a point to Muffin). The 1991 Gulf war really was about oil. That isn’t a politically motivated conspiracy theory either like the ones saying Gulf war II was about oil. The war of 1991 that really, really, really, really, really was about oil had the support of the Canadian & French governments, as well as several others.

46

Sure we would. And the American people would just go along with it since it would ‘profit’ us so much. Since Bush is the king and all, we just go along with what he says… Er, damn. Let the cat slip out of the bag there. WHEN Bush is king, then Canada will certainly be at the top of the invasion list, I’m sure.

(To be serious for a second, does anyone here REALLY think the US would profit by invading Canada? Even if we could invade and take their oil, and leaving aside the cost of the invasion/occupation, whats the current amount of trade between Canada and the US? I’m getting a rough figure of around $175 billion/year. Does anyone think we could invade and subdue Canada, steal their oil, and somehow make up for the loss of $175 billion in trade a year…and that this would be a profitable venture? I mean, leaving aside what the rest of the world would do to the US if we invaded Canada…and leaving aside the reaction of the American people and all that other pesky reality stuff and just looking at it from a business/profit perspective)

-XT

47

You’ve said too much already, ixnay on the overthrowna of emocracyda. I’m just glad that you didn’t tell him that Bush is the second coming of Jesus, we need to keep that under wraps until we can install the robots as presidents in Europe.

48

First of all, Wesley:

Uhhh…

If you can’t figure that out, it may be because you’re looking at straw men, not Canadian or French people. The difference between the Gulf War and the Iraq invasion isn’t that one is about oil and the other isn’t, the difference is that in 1991, Iraq invaded and conquered a helpless country. They violated the most important of international laws, and the Allies went in, in accordance with international law, to stop them.

In 2003, Iraq WAS the helpless country being invaded and conquered.

There was no justification for war in 2003. There was in 1991. Forget the oil angle. Canada and France will fight for oil in the right circumstances.

No, not really. Protest seems to be only along partisan lines, and it’s normal to expect the other party to complain. Bush was re-elected. Where’s the evidence Americans oppose this sort of foreign policy? In a democracy, the populace expresses its opinion through elections, and in 2004 a majority of U.S., voters said “The Iraq invasion is A-OK with us.”

In any case, even if the USA were a threat to Canada, which it presently is not, arming ourselves with nuclear weapons wouldn’t be a solution to anything. I don’t think for a second the USA’s going to invade, but this is a fun thought exercise, so let’s play with it.

The problem with having a defense strategy based on a defense force that’s primarily nuclear is that, well, your defense force is primarily nuclear. You’d either have to be prepared to use them, or what’s the point? And Canada can’t win a nuclear war, because NOBODY can win a nuclear war.

If the USA were to actually become a threat to Canada - say, in 40 years it becomes a de facto theocracy and their economy collapses and the President is someone like Pat Robertson and everything’s goofy - Canada’s best defense option would be:

  1. Moving the government in absentia to a friendly state, like the UK or France.

  2. Planning, ahead of time, for the armed forces to put up a nominal fight and then melt away, distributing weapons and soldiers among the populace.

  3. From afar, running an ongoing guerrilla campaign…

  4. …And a hell of a PR campaign. Make it the cleanest guerrilla war ever fought, attacking only military targets. Keep “Free Canada!” at the forefront of everyone’s mind. And use that support to feed your resistance army.

There is no conventional response to an American invasion of Canada. A nuclear response just guarantees that both sides lose. A guerrilla campaign is the right approach, and Canada would have the rest of the world on its side.

49

Canada went in on Gulf I to defend an innocent nation that had been invaded. We did not go in because of oil. We have a rather lot of it already. We went into Afganistan because it was sheltering terrorists that had attacked in innocent nation. We did not go in on Gulf II because in that instance Iraq was the innocent nation, albiet with a vile person that the USA had supported in the Rumsfeld / Reagan years.

50

Having actually lived in Canada for a time I can’t even imagine how bad a guerrilla campaign in all that wilderness would be. I have one word…ugly.

I think you are right though. I wouldn’t even bother with a token conventional war. I’d stockpile arms and supplies out there in the wilderness (presumably you’ll have plenty of warning that the US is going off the deep end), and when the US began staging forces for the invasion I’d blow up the infrastructure and melt my forces into the wood. I have no idea how the US COULD hold Canada, though I suppose if we are only after the oil we would only occupy those area’s. Blow em up or booby trap them so that they are destroyed as soon as the US sets foot into Canada.

Of course, this is all completely silly, as we’d have had to subdue Europe, the Middle East and Asia before we could go into Canada…otherwise at a minimum we’d have NO trade with anyone in the world the moment we put boots on the ground there.

No, better for the US to send up underground 5th column types to convince the Canadian’s that they REALLY want to JOIN the US. :wink: I didn’t meet many, but there actually are some Canadians out there who would welcome their new masters. (of course, if the Canadians really DID join the US the Republicans probably would never get re-elected again! :eek: )

-XT

51

And further to that, even if we did have the bomb, I very much doubt if we would have the resolve to use it, given so many cross-border familial relationships. Without such resolve, there can be no nuclear deterrent.

52

At the moment, the infrasructure is under construction, so only one lane is open. (I am referring to the Nipigon Bridge, which is the only road that connects eastern to western Canada. It has been under repair all summer.)

53

First off by republican, I assume you mean the current religious oriented right winged republicans. (IMO: this would be a very good thing if they never held office again) I believe a moderate Repub. would have a chance.
That said, when can we make this happen? Please Canada come and rescue us. :wink:

Minor note: You all know of course that the USA got its butt kicked the last time they invaded Canada? The war of 1812 of course. That hardly applies to today but I thought someone should mention it.

54

Well, I can’t claim to have the pulse of the entire nation at my fingertips, but most of the Canadian’s I met wouldn’t go for even a moderate Republican platform. Many I met think the Democrats are too far to the right. :wink: I think that if Canada were to join the union that the initial effect would be nearly every Canadian ‘state’ would be a blue state. The mid to long term effect may be a whole new party…maybe the Green Party as a real contender.

Well, thats true enough, though of course the US wasn’t really serious (or capable for that matter) about that invasion. In addition, it was really the British that kicked our ass…though of course it was Canadian militia also (under British command). Over all though I’d have to say that the situation today is slightly different than it was in 1812…

Or, was your point that the US HAD invaded Canada so we could again? The reason we ‘invaded’ Canada (in our backassward way) was that it was the only place we could actually fight the British at the time…they having pissed us off a bit with their blockade of our trade and the whole stealing of sailors thing. :wink:

-XT

55

In as much as during that war the Canadians gave the Americans some gunpowder when the Americans did not have enough for their 4th of July celebrations, I can only imagine what would take place should a nuclear Canada be at war with the USA. “Need to drop the ball on New Year’s Eve in Times Square? Here, use one of our nukes.”

56

Thank you, that was great.
If possible I am a Green Republican. I don’t like the Kerry Dems and I hate the Bush/Dole Repugnants. Maybe I really should give up and move to Canada. Then I could work as a fifth columner and rescue the US by sucking them into unifying with Canada and swinging the political spectrum a whole new direction. I think we may be on to something.
BTW, they have a better sounding and more peaceful National Anthem.

57

Canada’s a great place. I loved living in Ottowa (I worked for CNG later Williams Canada). Lots of great people, lots of great scenery…horrible food (IMHO). Cuban cigars though and the scotch was good (though everything is expensive). I don’t think you’d have much luck convincing most Canadians they would be better off joining the union, but it might be fun to try. Most of the Canadians who would even entertain the notion (not many) were of the English speaking variety. The one’s who spoke French would probably be fairly offended. :stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

58

Given the large part oil (fossil fuel in general) played in the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and the curious hostility we have towards Venezuela (can’t be that we hate it when a country nationalizes it’s oil industry?).
In a decade or two invading Canada might sound like a great idea.
Why buy what you can just steal!

59

The number of Americans with ties to Canada, and vice versa, is incredibly huge. See how angry Florida gets when Cuba is discussed? Now try having that reaction across the entire country.

You’d have to put just about everyone in a border state, Hollywood, and New York in an internment camp!

Heck, Canada and Mexico are the only foreign countries that many Americans have actually visited, so you’d have Grandma Smith bitching about how the administration wants to invade the city where she went to a family reunion.

As for some other issues: The U.S. couldn’t put up much of a stink about violating the NPT, since the current admin is trying to violate it seven ways from Sunday by developing pocket nukes for use on the battlefield.

Oil in Canada is trapped in Alberta tar sands and off the coast of Newfoundland, so it’s not exactly easily accessible.

And dropping a nuclear weapon on a place like, say, Detroit, might be a really bad idea if you look at fallout…

60

I think this map shows just who is massing along the borders in preparation for an invasion…