Would you have been able to buy a mobile home so easily if you had had to compete against “everyone”?
You’ve given examples of people gambling, not “planning”. Gambling is definitely a part of planning (I’ve got a couple of mutual funds, so I’m not against taking risks), but a person can plan a whole bunch and be left with nothing in the end, simply due to bad luck. You’re too chicken to play the market. I’m too chicken to buy a mobile home on the bad side of town in Tornado Alley. But that doesn’t mean we haven’t planned in other ways.
It may not be discernible to you, but if it weren’t without risk, then everyone would be doing it. And everyone who has done it would be a success, and we both know that’s not true. A 19-year-old who buys property–mobile or otherwise–is saddling themselves to a specific location. That alone represents an opportunity cost. That’s a risk.
Again, great for you. And I’m sure you did it all by yourself, with no help from friends, family, or Lady Luck. But not every one will be able to follow your example and have the same success. You are a sample size of one.
Most 19-year-olds are not in any position to plan their birthday parties, let alone their financial future. Which is why they are sent to college to do some growing-up before they start making major decisions, like where to settle. Why do YOU think most 19-year-olds don’t do what you did and buy a house? Do you think they have misaligned values? Do you think they are lazy? Do you think they aren’t raised right? Do you think they are fools?
Lemme ax you something. How many times have you been laid off over the past 20 years?
If your answer is anything other than “never”, then you HAVE taken a huge financial risk. It’s a risk that I have worked very hard to hedge against, and so far successfully. Job security is more important to me than fixed housing payments. In this day and age, you can’t get any more risky than fixing yourself to a particular location–particularly during the prime of your career.
I don’t know why you think I’m bothered by your success. I’m not in any competition with you, a random stranger on the internet. I’m bothered by your attitude that you represent the pinnical of success, and that people who take alternative routes to success that are just as reasonable are somehow lacking in the same compentencies or moral virtues that you possess. But I’m not bothered at all that you are a successful homeowner. Are you bothered that I’m a successful renter? If not, why the fuck are you making this personal?
I’m scratching my head, trying to figure out where I said anything about debt. I didn’t have a drop of debt in college because I had scholarships. I also worked my ass off. I was very very lucky that I qualified for scholarships–I’ll be the first to say that. But you, sir, don’t have a monopoly on hard work. There was nothing “convenient” about the route I took to get where I am now. So don’t get it fuckin’ twisted.
The difference between you and me is that I’m not afraid to admit that I was lucky. You think you have a “foolproof” plan for success, while I will fully admit that my “plan” isn’t necessarily the best for everyone.
Right, but that’s not why I don’t live in a trailer park. I’m the laughing stock now because I’m a renter. They laughed when I told them I wanted to study rotifers for a living. I don’t make decisions based on who will or won’t laugh at me.
Again, if your plan is so foolproof and easy, why isn’t everyone doing it? There must be some reason other than you being smarter and wiser than everyone to account for this.
Of course this also depends on climate. Certainly in my cold climate the heating bills would eat up any savings versus an apartment. I lived in a (rented) singlewide trailer for a while and it was cheap as hell but… in the winter my energy bills were more than my rent. That stupid thing cost more to heat than that 3 bedroom house I live in now.
Yeah, absolutely. It’s situation-dependent. The rule probably makes some sense for most people, and most cases–but individual situations may vary. Just trying to show that spending $X on rent vs $Y+$Z on rent+other stuff is not exactly equivalent, and comes with additional risks (which may or may not be relevant).
That’s very true, and is an additional risk for homeowners. Part of it depends on how willing you are to make your own repairs. The only repair I’ve had of any significance was a broken water heater. A plumber would have been a few hundred bucks, I’m sure. But it was just an encrusted pressure relief valve that cost $10 at Home Depot and I replaced myself.
Also, I live in a condo with an HOA, so the outside stuff is taken care of. Roofs in particular need regular work and can get very expensive; the HOA probably gets a better deal on this than I could by myself.
There are a lot of drawbacks and they don’t only involve an inability to bring someone “back to your place” but I was distinguishing those who live with their parents for a few years while working full time and saving towards some defined goal from those who live with their parents for a much longer time because kicking mom and dad a couple of hundred a month for room and board leaves them more discretionary income than moving out would. Those ones face an actual stigma- perhaps precisely because they are willing to accept those drawbacks.
Yes but not for the reasons your state. Life has fixed costs irregardless of where you live and percentage costs. If I live here rent will be 30% of my income but there it will be 40%. I can live closer to work and spend less on gas but pay higher rent, etc. Fixed costs would be like the internet bill, cable bill, car payment, cell-phone bill, utilities, groceries [per person] and car insurance (for the most part), etc. I do real-life budgeting with my students and the 35% is a good guide for someone making a few bucks above minimum wage because of the fixed costs because fixed cost take up about 60% of their pay with utilities and other variable costs take up about 15% of their pay - yes over 100% which is why I teach budgeting.
But you’re right, a couple with $120,000 a year and no kids could easily spend only 20% of their income and have a very nice 2 bedrooms/1 bath while a family of 6 making $50,000 total may have to spend up to 50% of their income just to exist.
All this discussion reminds me of how glad I am I live in Kansas City where all housing options are reasonable - owning a house (you can still get them for $100k), or renting or buying into a condo. Many first time home buyers buy an attached home like a duplex.
What you all pay in NYC or Boston sounds almost crazy to me.
People who plan out their financial future do. Not necessarily a trailer. I stressed this was one of infinite ways to meet the goals you laid down.
Yes. Because I’m not limited to a single solution.
I never once mentioned gambling. I said investment, as in actively trading on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. As for this new strawman you’re throwing out about tornadoes I already addressed that. They should be strapped down to avoid roll over. Unless you live in a a bomb shelter You’re subjected to the same destruction as any other building. My area had sustained winds of 100+ mph a few years back. tore up a lot of stuff. My house is still here as is my old mobile home and all the mobile homes around it. We had a tornado back in the 70’s that destroyed every house in it’s wake. Brick houses. Gone.
Again, that’s not true. A mobile home isn’t “property” like a house. They are moved using the exact same truck used to haul your apartment furniture. I already went over this. It’s no different than moving from an apartment.
Again, the people I taught this too had the same success. And yes, I did this by myself. It’s a simple purchase to make. The bank handles it like a used car loan.
If you say so. Not my experience or my friends.
Most of my friends stayed home instead of living on campus and worked their way through school. They planned their financial futures. Growing up meant taking responsibility and planning for their future. As I’ve stated repeatedly mine is not a singular fix but one of an infinite number of ways to meet a goal.
2006,2008,2009,2010,2012, 2013. I can’t begin to list all the jobs I’ve done in that time frame as many of it consisted of part time home renovation projects. It was a very unpleasant time in my life.
I exited college debt free with a house paid for. That wasn’t a specific goal but rather a fallout of working full time and going to school part time and taking longer to graduate. During that entire time my housing cost was ALWAYS less than apartment rent. that was the point of the purchase. The goal was to reduce living expenses. Unless you consider living under a bridge an option then housing is not only a primary concern, it is THE primary budget concern. Not only was my living expenses always cheaper than an apartment I always had the option of renting out a room to reduce the cost further. Over time it starts out cheaper than rent, gets much cheaper after it’s paid off, and the lot rent is free if a room mate is brought in.
What you are calling a housing payment is what I called a living expense on a budget sheet.
Why do you consider a basic budget strategy a success?
You’re the one saying my budgeting was some kind of impossible risky project when in actuality it was far less risky than renting. The whole point of why I did it was risk avoidance. I wanted to spend less money than renting. Check. I wanted something that created equity. Check. I wanted something that would reduce my costs even further to hedge against layoff. Check. I wanted something I could use to generate a monthly income in case of layoff. Check. I wanted to be able to relocate if necessary. Check.
You specifically talked about people who had student loans hanging over their heads. My mistake
Good for you. I didn’t. I DID plan out various financial scenarios to deal with. You think it’s a goddamn miracle that a 19 year old can think of their future and do 3rd grade math. It was the norm for me and my friends. Of course, we all had parents who came out of the depression and budgeting was a survival skill. I haven’t suggested anything particularly difficult to do. In fact, I’ve gone out of my way to make such suggestions.
Good for you. Seriously. It doesn’t change this conversation.
I didn’t struggle in my early years. My first and longest job was in danger of loss the entire time. I was lucky it lasted so long but it didn’t change my ability to reduce living expenses. What I did automatically made a layoff easier to deal with.
I didn’t propose a plan for success. I gave an example of budgeting that addressed your topic. I’m the least successful of my friends who are starting to retire now. My retirement ship sailed, burned, sank and is now feeding fish. It doesn’t appear I’m going to starve.
Right, but that’s not why I don’t live in a trailer park. I’m the laughing stock now because I’m a renter. They laughed when I told them I wanted to study rotifers for a living. I don’t make decisions based on who will or won’t laugh at me.
Again, if your plan is so foolproof and easy, why isn’t everyone doing it? There must be some reason other than you being smarter and wiser than everyone to account for this.
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You keep asking this question yet you can’t explain the flaws in such a simple transaction. There must be some reason why 20 million people in the US live in mobile homes. Does that sound like some hidden secret to you or do you think they’re all stupid?
So I’ll flip the question. Why (or how) do people leave high school without the ability to find the Pacific Ocean on a world map or figure out basic cost ratios while shopping to see which is the better value?
Again, all I did was suggest ONE method of reducing the cost of housing in response to your thread. It’s not necessary to spend half of a salary on rent. Will it work for everybody? Not unless they start putting mobile homes in Central Park. but for a lot of people it’s math at it’s most basic. You can look at a large city such as Chicago and google mobile homes. It’s doable in many areas and thus ONE of an infinite number of options to consider.
Moving what’s commonly thought of as a “mobile home” (i.e. not just a big camping trailer*) is way more involved than just hooking it up to a truck. It requires specialized movers with lots of specialized equipment and usually a lot of special permits. You’re talking several thousand dollars minimum for a singlewide and doublewides are pretty much in “don’t ask” territory.
The other major issue with your “buy a cheap mobile home” strategy is that most mobile home parks these days have limits on how old a unit they’ll let someone move in. Especially as more and more of them are getting closed, the remaining ones can afford to be choosy about who they take and generally that means only newer units. You can buy a 20+ year old mobile home that’s been sitting on its lot since it was new for a song, but if you get kicked out you’re almost certainly screwed. There’s a reason why Craigslist is usually full of perfectly decent “free, must move” mobile homes.
You’re lucky it worked out for you, but especially going forward the real estate economics and often local government attitudes are getting increasingly unfriendly to mobile home parks. They’re still an okay way to live cheap IF you can afford the possibility of losing your investment.
*Actually, at least for a single person or a couple, a big camper like a 5th wheel isn’t a bad cheap housing option. They’re at least actually mobile and there’s lots of temporary parking options available if worst comes to worse.
Simple supply and demand. The housemates I spoke of upthread moved here from a very economically depressed area where the housing was cheap. One of them hadn’t been able to find any type of job in the 3-4 years after their layoff. When one of them landed a job up here they automatically jumped without doing their homework, so to speak. How to you weigh job vs. affordable place to live, you know?
Where housing is cheap and affordable, there are few jobs. When you’re young, finding a secure job is at the top of your priority list. And so are social opportunities. Young people also want and need friends and significant others. Buying property means sacrificing the flexibility that enables these contacts.
Young people are given a million different pieces of advice, a lot of it conflicting. It’s impossible for anyone to make the best choice all the time–but especially when you’re young and you don’t really know what you’re doing. I feel lucky that I was born when I was. I’d be a mess if I were just ten years younger, I think.
This Guardian article elaborates on why it’s not as easy as you might think for everyone to just buy their own house - it’s not about poor planning everywhere and for everyone; sometimes houses are just unaffordable on normal salaries and no amount of declaring that people should just have planned things better will make them affordable.
It is not quite so simple. In this country public policy is devoted to keeping housing expenses high. For example, the mortgage deduction for taxes means that prices are higher than they would otherwise be. We also have two Government agencies devoted to providing thirty year mortgages which make housing more expensive.
Then the biggest driver of cost is land use regulations. Restrictions about the number of houses that can be built, restrictions on building heights, restrictions on how much rent can be charged, restriction on the amount of people that can live in one house, restrictions on the types of building that can be built, green space regulations, etc. Some of these are done with the express purpose of driving up home values and others have it happen as a side effect. Combine this with the number of immigrants and you have an artificial market that keeps housing costs high.
Well, nice for you, but out here there are few such mobile home parks and you have to pay rent on the space too. Generally, at least out here, it’s worse than renting.
Foolproof? It is to laugh. Let me tell you what some Mobil home park owners do out in the San Jose area. You buy a home at a reasonable price from the park (these are double-wides and attached to the ground in many places) with a one-five year lease on the space rent. After that, they simply increase the rent by 500%*. You can’t afford that. You can’t sell either, since no one will buy a “home” with rent that high. You default and walk away. The park owners now own your home, and drop the rent down. Wash, rinse repeat.
there is rent control but there are many loopholes. Yeah, 500% is almost unheard of but 20% a year is not. Mobile Home Tenants Battle Landlords Over Rent Hikes | San Jose Inside
*Investment Property Group (IPG), which holds the land lease, wants to up the rent by $125 and some change—on top of the 3 percent uptick allowed by San Jose’s mobile home rent control ordinance. For tenants with monthly rents around $850, that comes close to an 18 percent increase.
Edna and Jack, a retired couple in their 70s, pay $1,000 for the mortgage on their unit and $1,300 for the lot beneath it. Eighty percent of their combined monthly income goes to keeping a roof over their heads. Paying any more could force them to move—away from their home, away from her 90-year-old mother and away from their children and grandkids…“It’s troubling because these tenants are totally at the mercy of the landowner,” says James Zahradka, an attorney for the Law Foundation of Silicon Valley.
*
Let me say that again: these tenants are totally at the mercy of the landowner
Foolproof, eh? (And n, you cant “just move the trailer”- to where? And it’s really expensive)
*The mobile homes themselves really aren’t: Moving a coach is a substantial and expensive undertaking. Consequently, vacating tenants generally sell their units to the incoming residents.
*
Nope. Watched a guy pull one out with dually. Did a number on his clutch going up a steep hill.
I’ve watched them do it properly. pull the skirt down, put 4 tires on it, disconnect water, sewer and electrical. Off they go. Real complicated.
cite. I’ve seen one park close in 50 years in my area. It was closed because the well was contaminated. In that time I couldn’t even begin to count the new ones that opened up.
20 million people live in them. How much money do you get back from renting an apartment. ZERO. And there was no luck involved. It was cheaper than an apartment from day one. That was the first savings. Once it was paid for it was WAAAAY cheaper than an apartment. That was in increase in savings. I used a broker to sell it and got all my money back. Yes that meant I got more for it than I paid for it. It sold quickly because oddly enough there are people who can grasp the budgetary aspects of living in one. And while it was nice to get all my money back it wasn’t the point of buying it. Anything I got back was money on top of the savings over apartment rent. It became the down payment for a house.
Campers are far more expensive per square foot than a mobile home and the accommodations are not comparable to an apartment.
The reason 20 million people live in them is because they provide a reasonable place to live at a good price.
But lets hear your fabulous idea for beating the high cost of rent. All I’ve heard is you might get hit by a tornado or have to move to Alaska because you are the only one with the job skills needed and it will be a total loss because trailers cannot be resold. We’ll just forget the reality that tornadoes are rare and so are out of town job offers to people who pay half their money in rent. In the real world ALL of your rent is gone. There’s no risk involved because it’s a 100% loss.
So lets hear your idea to save money on living expenses. I produced a real world solution that literally millions of people have used.
Actually, you yourself provided one in post #51. Your total expenses in your example are $380 a month, including $200 lot rent. You propose renting out one of the rooms in your mobile home for $100 room rent
Clearly, not only is $100 way less than $380, it’s also less than $200. You’re paying more in rent than your hypothetical college student is paying in rent.
If $100 a month is the going rate for a room in your area, you could simply rent a room for 5 years, put $280 in the bank each month, and walk away at the end with $16k+