[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
Approximately 30% of those in prison for drug crimes (which is about 25% of the total inmate population) are there for possession only, according to the DOJ’s 2004 statistics.
[/QUOTE]
which proves his point of ‘most drug incarceration is for dealing’. which also misses the point IME. Drug “dealing” can (and often is) stuff like selling a small amount of your personal stash at a slight profit and/or telling some one who to ask for drugs.
the issue of percentage of folks incarcerated isn’t a simple analysis/conclusion. folks who have a criminal history have great difficulty (generaly,imE) getting work that supports them (Employers often screen out for offenders), getting places to live, etc, etc etc. if you can[t legally earn a living, find a place to live, what exactly do you expect will happen?
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
Just to put things into a conservative friendly frame of reference, imprisoning pot smokers confers no long standing benefit to society, and it is really expensive.
Think of the corporate taxes, man!
Tris
[/QUOTE]
I agree. Repeal the law. I’m all for it. I’m just saying I have no sympathy for people who broke it.
I freely admit that I am making a personal judgement on the value of marijuana use. I don’t think it should be illegal, but I don’t think it is such a valuable or stimulating pursuit that I should feel sorry for someone who willfully broke the law and is suffering the consequences.
If someone were put in prison because they broke a hypothetical “No reading!” law, I would feel sorry for them, yes.
I suppose, upon further review, that I would have to say the same thing for sodomy laws. But pot? No way.
Let’s re-segregate city buses, then. Is it really such a big fucking deal where you sit? I don’t feel sorry for anyone who gets hosed because they got a bit uppity and had to sit three rows closer to the driver.*
[QUOTE=ForumBot]
If I don’t hurt anyone, I deserve to be left the hell alone. If not hurting anyone is against the law, I shouldn’t be surprised when I’m punished. But I still deserve to be left alone.
[/QUOTE]
No, you don’t.
How is it that you’ve arrived at this odd belief that jail/prison time is only for “dangerous” people who have “hurt” someone?
What if someone habitually speeds and runs red lights? What if they refuse to pay their taxes? What if they ignore lawful orders by the police or a judge? What if they have sex with willing but underage people? No one is ‘hurt’ by these offenses nor countless others.
Prison/jail is to punish people who break the law (and to serve as an example of what happens when you break the law so that everyone doesn’t start doing it).
If someone were put in prison because they broke a hypothetical “No reading!” law, I would feel sorry for them, yes.
I suppose, upon further review, that I would have to say the same thing for sodomy laws. But pot? No way.
[/QUOTE]
What if it wasn’t all books, but just comic books? What if the government banned caffeine? Would you feel sorry for the coffee-drinkers who end up in jail?
[QUOTE=Starving Artist]
Prison/jail is to punish people who break the law (and to serve as an example of what happens when you break the law so that everyone doesn’t start doing it).
It’s just that simple.
[/QUOTE]
It’s my belief that actions that don’t harm anyone should not be illegal. I’m well aware that we currently put people in jail for simply breaking the law, regardless of how morally sound that law may be. It’s just simple logic that if I disagree with a law, then I will disapprove of any resulting punishment as well.
Does the 1% figure include just people actually incarcerated, or does it also include those on parole or probation? My understanding is that those on parole are, in a way, still “in prison”. They’re under the supervision of the state prison, as if they are really just on extended furlough.
1% actually doesn’t seem all that high, although I think a lot of people are there who don’t deserve to be. And undoubtedly there are many others walking free who should be behind bars.
With regard to pot smokers, I can see Absolute’s point that, while one can sympathize, it’s still their responsibility for choosing to break the law, and instead of doing so, they should work to change it. That’s well and good, but it seems that the prospects of doing so are virtually nil, and that there will always be a clear majority who disapprove of it and want to keep it illegal. Yes, we are a nation of laws and are obligated to obey them. On the other hand should there be laws that dictate against (mostly) harmless private behavior? Generally speaking (again in my opinion), a thing should be illegal because it is inherently wrong, and not wrong just because the body politic has made it illegal.
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus]
Does the 1% figure include just people actually incarcerated, or does it also include those on parole or probation?
[/QUOTE]
It is those actually in prison or jail. It does not include probation or parole.
Draconian marijuana laws are archaic and need to go the way of laws against rolling barrels down the street or having someone walking in front of your horseless carriage. I can see the point of people saying the law is the law, and don’t break it if you don’t want to get punished, but the governments also need to see that their population is doing this all the time (my rough estimate is every single person in North America has smoked pot), it hurts virtually no one, and the laws are not useful. The opposite - as people have pointed out, you can wreck a life with a pot conviction, and there’s the cost of locking up all those nasty potheads (like they’re going to get off the couch for anything other than a 7-11 run!)
Of course, this is my Canadian perspective, where I’ve seen people smoking a jay out in public on a sunny afternoon.
[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
Approximately 30% of those in prison for drug crimes (which is about 25% of the total inmate population) are there for possession only, according to the DOJ’s 2004 statistics.
[/QUOTE]
I assume that “possession only” doesn’t include those convicted of growing their own. Though an obvious stratagem for avoiding the risks of the underground market, if they catch you with the plants don’t they charge you with manufacture?
Regarding pianos and other musical instruments, isn’t there a consensus that accordion playing should be banned?
[QUOTE=ForumBot]
Let’s re-segregate city buses, then. Is it really such a big fucking deal where you sit? I don’t feel sorry for anyone who gets hosed because they got a bit uppity and had to sit three rows closer to the driver.*
*sarcasm, for the easily whooshed
[/QUOTE]
First of all, I didn’t say I think marijuana should be illegal. Just that, while it is, I have no sympathy for you if you decide to gamble you won’t get caught, and lose.
Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat was a symbolic gesture, protesting the violation of freedom that all blacks were subjected to. Smoking some weed is not symbolic.
I find it amusing that you’re drawing a parallel between the civil rights struggle of the 1960’s, and pot smoking. You can’t legally get high. I can’t legally drive my car on deserted highways in New Mexico at 120 mph. Yeah, it sucks. Big fucking deal. This is about three orders of magnitude lower than what blacks had to put up with the 1950’s. They were harassed for existing. Pot smokers are harassed because they’re too stupid not to smoke pot.
[QUOTE=ForumBot]
It’s my belief that actions that don’t harm anyone should not be illegal. I’m well aware that we currently put people in jail for simply breaking the law, regardless of how morally sound that law may be. It’s just simple logic that if I disagree with a law, then I will disapprove of any resulting punishment as well.
[/QUOTE]
I disapprove of the punishment also. I don’t think pot smokers should be put in jail.
However, I think people who break the law should expect to suffer the consequences. If you decide smoking pot is worth the risk, and then get caught, tough shit, dumbass. It wasn’t really worth it, was it?
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus]
…
Regarding pianos and other musical instruments, isn’t there a consensus that accordion playing should be banned?
[/QUOTE]
I vote for the banning of the fucking vuvuzela.
Jesus, the term “noise” is an underfuckingstatement.
[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
What if it wasn’t all books, but just comic books? What if the government banned caffeine? Would you feel sorry for the coffee-drinkers who end up in jail?
[/QUOTE]
Comic books? I’d feel sorry that the government has gone to hell, but no, I wouldn’t feel sorry for someone who thought that reading a Superman comic was worth a jail sentence. Your decision, your loss.
Ditto coffee-drinkers. No one needs coffee. If they were to make coffee illegal, you put up with the headaches for a week and move on. Unless you’re an idiot. Then you go to jail. With no sympathy from me.
Very few people are in prison just for marijuana use. I’ve worked in prisons for over 25 years and I’ve reviewed literally thousands of prisoner records - and I don’t remember ever seeing a single prisoner who was serving time for just marijuana use. And this is in New York, a state that was noted for its draconian drug laws.
[QUOTE=Absolute]
Comic books? I’d feel sorry that the government has gone to hell, but no, I wouldn’t feel sorry for someone who thought that reading a Superman comic was worth a jail sentence. Your decision, your loss.
Ditto coffee-drinkers. No one needs coffee. If they were to make coffee illegal, you put up with the headaches for a week and move on. Unless you’re an idiot. Then you go to jail. With no sympathy from me.
[/QUOTE]
So what can get banned that you care enough about to fight for? You don’t think caffeine and pot are worth the fight, and I guess pianos, but you do think books are. Glad you’ve enlightened us all with your amazing powers to let us know which things are worth standing up to the government about.
I agree that you take the risk when things are against the law. But what recourse do we have? There aren’t enough people who are going to stand up for pot for things to change anytime soon.
It just seems odd that you are annoyed by the stupid people who smoke pot more than the stupid people who made the laws.
[QUOTE=ForumBot]
Doesn’t it strike you a bit odd that 1% of the population is so dangerous that they need to be physically separated from society?
[/QUOTE]
